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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#75276: Oct 6th 2017 at 1:28:57 PM

[up]It's the first step in Marvel's heroic origin. After they are wounded by one of their own weapons, they will be forced to rethink their war profiteering and become the true hero they were meant to be.

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#75277: Oct 6th 2017 at 1:32:28 PM

Marvel will be played by Joe Pesci in their upcoming blockbuster movie.

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#75278: Oct 6th 2017 at 1:33:25 PM

It's Marvel's Start of Darkness

they'll be redeemed in the third film

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#75279: Oct 6th 2017 at 1:34:21 PM

https://twitter.com/gerryconway/status/916371266424246272

Fuck, even the co-creator of the Punisher is pissed about this.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#75280: Oct 6th 2017 at 1:35:18 PM

[up][up]We'll call it "Marvel: What Were We Thinking?".

edited 6th Oct '17 1:37:16 PM by fredhot16

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#75281: Oct 6th 2017 at 2:32:00 PM

Marvel keeps finding new ways to make me question them.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#75282: Oct 6th 2017 at 2:41:22 PM

There is no way the bigwigs of Disney knew about this. Disney is WAY too careful to tarnish its image with something like this. Hell, Disney has kept the President's Hall "under construction" since Trump got elected and they have a strict no-smoking policy for their movies.

Until we know more, I blame Perlmutter. Because bad decisions at Marvel can usually be traced back to Perlmutter.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#75283: Oct 6th 2017 at 2:43:44 PM

I don;t see any of those things has anything to do with this,Disney owns them,and thus it is a reasonable assumption to make that they have approved this deal

edited 6th Oct '17 2:44:00 PM by Ultimatum

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#75284: Oct 6th 2017 at 2:47:18 PM

[up] Subsidiaries don't work that way. In most cases they have a lot of autonomy in their day to day business.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#75285: Oct 6th 2017 at 3:02:51 PM

I'm really sad that I spoiled Frank's commanding officer being the Blacksmith because it's a hell of a twist.

Almost done with this now...

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#75286: Oct 6th 2017 at 3:04:40 PM

Just this morning, we were talking about the Hulk and Hawkeye banging each other with Odin looking in concern, Loki selling tickets or snacks, Hella really loving the free yaoi she's getting, and Doctor Strange using magic to livestream it.

edited 6th Oct '17 3:09:51 PM by fredhot16

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#75287: Oct 6th 2017 at 3:14:15 PM

Well, it's South Korea...have you ever seen the Sherlock Trailers they made for season 2? Looked like the show was some sort of tragic romance.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#75288: Oct 6th 2017 at 3:14:36 PM

They're doing Korean-style wrestling. Seriously, how far in the gutter is everyone that that was the first thing that came to mind for everyone?

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#75289: Oct 6th 2017 at 3:17:09 PM

Speaking of foreign posters, never forget this gem.

edited 6th Oct '17 3:17:22 PM by LordVatek

This song needs more love.
fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#75290: Oct 6th 2017 at 3:18:44 PM

[up]Oh, sweet lord.

I literally laughed when I saw that.

I believe somebody was either a pretty big fan of Titanic or they got their information really wrong about what type of movie this is supposed to be.

edited 6th Oct '17 3:19:18 PM by fredhot16

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
MedusaStone Since: Jan, 2015
#75292: Oct 6th 2017 at 3:44:46 PM

You know, I think we shouldn't be surprised at Marvel's poor judgement here. Remember, these are the same people that thought Captain HYDRA was a good idea, and apparently still don't understand why everyone except actual neo-nazis are pissed about it.

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#75293: Oct 6th 2017 at 3:48:34 PM

I didn't read Captain HYDRA, but didn't that actually end up interesting? They used the controversy to stir up word of mouth, but the rest of the series was supposed to be good.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#75294: Oct 6th 2017 at 4:36:58 PM

We aren't talking about whatever solo run Captain Hydra had. The straw that broke the camel's back was the Secret Empire event.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#75295: Oct 6th 2017 at 5:04:42 PM

So now I've finished DD season 2.

I don't think what I was told about the show getting bad after 4 episodes was entirely accurate. Rather I would say there were seeds planted after that and a very slow decline, and then the season jumps the shark at episode 8 and never recovers.

It feels like the main problem with this season is they had two big storyline ideas (the Punisher story, and the plot with Elektra and the Hand) and they felt like neither of them would have been enough to make a full season's worth of story so they just combined the two.

This ended up being a terrible idea, obviously.

The Frank Castle storyline I think didn't suffer that much. Maybe it could have been even better if it had been the sole focus, but Castle himself was still very compelling and it was very easy to be invested in his storyline all the way to the end, because he's so tragic and Joe Bernthal plays the hell out of the role. It reaches a satisfying conclusion with the twist about Schoonover being the blacksmith and Frank giving himself fully to his mission; with Schoonover's arsenal and the skull emblem bodysuit he's recognizably the Punisher.

Meanwhile, the Matt and Elektra storyline that starts with episode 5 is not nearly as interesting as the stuff with Castle, but it's not all bad either. Elektra is a compelling enough character and her romance with Matt is a lot more interesting than his relationship with Karen. Towards around episode 7 I think there starts to be some ambiguity presented in Elektra's character that makes it ambiguous whether she thinks Matt is just a toy for her to play with or whether she actually cares about him, which I liked a lot and made me get more invested in where things were gonna go.

...but then, the Hand rears its ugly head in episode 8 and everything turns to shit.

The Hand suck. Not only because they are a racist Yellow Peril stereotype, but because they are boring. In fact the fact that they are a yellow peril threat is directly tied into what makes them boring. The show goes through great lengths to humanize and portray the white villains and criminals as people. Fisk, Wesley, Castle, Wesley, and to a lesser degree even Vladimir and Anatoly in season 1 are portrayed as sympathetic, complex characters with a core of humanity and tragedy, making them people the audience can be invested in emotionally.

They didn't seem to care about doing any of that with the Hand. They almost seem to treat it as an obligation to have them because they were from the comics, without putting any actual effort into making them worthwhile villains. Their plotline is completely underdeveloped and they don't have any complex villains with pathos for the audience to be invested in.

They could have easily had that with Nobu, but it feels like they just blew their load on the Castle plotline and left the Hand with absolutely nothing worth caring about. In fact so undercooked was this whole plotline that it borders on the absurd; Stick just shows up in episode 8 and talks about this whole mystical backstory with no real build-up or anything and it feels completely at odds with everything else that's been going on. It's ridiculous how rushed it is and how much the audience is supposed to swallow without being given a good reason to.

Part of the reason why episode 8 is the big turning point is also because it kind of ruins Elektra's character. Before episode 8, she was a character with a compelling ambiguity to her and her own motivations for being who she is and what she does, which aren't fully known yet, and that was part of what made her interesting.

Having basically everything she'd been doing a ploy by Stick completely undermines all of that and turns her into a much less interesting character. She still has a lot of good scenes with Matt afterwards showing how much he loves her and how important she is to him, but the decision to compromise her agency in the story in service of having her whole character revolve around Matt and Stick was very much the wrong decision.

What they should have done instead was make a commitment: either the season was going to be about the story with Frank Castle, or it was going to be about the Hand. And if it was going to be about the Hand, they needed to have actual complex characters the audience could care about, instead of the faceless, dehumanizing and racist cult they ended up writing.

....so now I just have Iron Fist before I can get to Defenders. I'll probably start that tomorrow.

edited 6th Oct '17 5:34:42 PM by Draghinazzo

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#75296: Oct 6th 2017 at 6:00:10 PM

It feels like the main problem with this season is they had two big storyline ideas (the Punisher story, and the plot with Elektra and the Hand) and they felt like neither of them would have been enough to make a full season's worth of story so they just combined the two.

I had that same opinion when I finished the season, and I still have it today,

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#75297: Oct 6th 2017 at 7:30:07 PM

So I watched the new Inhumans episode. Posted my full thoughts in the thread but to say it briefly: it got better.

It's still shit but compared to how mindbogglingly awful the first two episodes were, this is better.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#75298: Oct 6th 2017 at 7:31:45 PM

I think the idea was to have three pods— the Punisher, Elektra, and then both. But because the Punisher's story is so strong and never quite goes away, it overwhelms anything else, and Elektra gets increasingly sidelined by the Hand— which ends up being this big, weird amorphous nothing, because they fill up all this screen real estate and we don't know anything about them. Having Elektra have some sort of background with Nobu, having the important figure in Elektra's background be the Natchios family rather than Stick, that would have all been more interesting than relegating even her joy in killing to a subordinate role in Stick's master plan. Make it about her, as with the Punisher and Fisk. Have Nobu show up in her childhood, the same age as he is now. Have him mentor her, before the Chaste show up and interfere, and for god's sake give the man some dialogue. And don't kill him off before you've even given him something to do. Still disappointed that Defenders didn't reveal that he was one of the Five Fingers of the Hand.

edited 6th Oct '17 7:43:26 PM by Unsung

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#75299: Oct 6th 2017 at 7:38:18 PM

I mean, he mentioned in Season One that he had superiors he needed to please, so we knew he was a subordinate from the start. It wouldn't make sense to retroactively Finger him.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#75300: Oct 6th 2017 at 7:39:59 PM

I don't mind that they did two stories, but I think they did too much of them....ie the Punisher arc became way too convoluted in the end. And I really don't see why Elektra had to die at her first appearance. Well, I know why they did it, because the second half of Daredevil is only a giant set-up for the Defenders and the Punisher spin-off and the third season of Daredevil, but it feels like exactly that. And it doesn't help that they apparently didn't even know what to set-up exactly.


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