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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#75126: Sep 30th 2017 at 4:33:30 PM

The Raimi trilogy is like Star Wars. It has a lot of nostalgic value and did things that had never been done before, at least for the audiences that enjoyed it. Consequentially, it holds a special place in a lot of people's hearts.

But they haven't really aged as well as fans think. There's so much that just blows them out of the water these days. These films were amazing for their time, but I'd much sooner watch an MCU film than any of them. Yes, even Spider-Man 2.

edited 30th Sep '17 4:34:22 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
dragonfire5000 from Where gods fear to tread Since: Jan, 2001
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#75128: Sep 30th 2017 at 4:42:06 PM

The Raimi films have aspects that haven't aged the best, so I can see why people wouldn't necessarily be so fond of them now, but here's the thing: sure the MCU movies have more modern sensibilities and do better in certain regards...but as far as being especially meaningful, we only really have Iron Man 1 and Winter Soldier, and in terms of being ambitious mostly just the latter.

Homecoming is kind of emblematic of that: in many regards it's an enjoyable film that's hard to dislike, but it doesn't feel especially meaty or meaningful outside of Michael Keaton's Vulture.

edited 30th Sep '17 4:55:22 PM by Draghinazzo

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#75129: Sep 30th 2017 at 4:42:26 PM

That he does, as does the arc of the villains.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#75130: Sep 30th 2017 at 4:45:34 PM

I'm wearing my rose tinted glasses and I'm not taking them off!

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#75131: Sep 30th 2017 at 5:08:42 PM

J.K. Simmons as Jameson is absolutely a gem. It's not without reason that he's provided the voice acting for the character in basically every animated rendition and video game Marvel's ever produced since. The ones he appears in, anyway.

Spider-Men come and go, but J.K. Simmons is J. Jonah Jameson forever. The two are as inseparable as RDJ and Tony Stark.

edited 30th Sep '17 5:09:17 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#75132: Sep 30th 2017 at 5:14:48 PM

Honestly, it's downright uncanny how spot-on he is.

EDIT: So, I started DD season 2, and one thing I will give this credit for is that, if nothing else, Frank Castle has a really strong introduction. He's honestly pretty damn intimidating, and they even made his codename sound scary.

edited 30th Sep '17 5:24:03 PM by Draghinazzo

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#75133: Sep 30th 2017 at 5:23:27 PM

J. K. Simmons as J. Jonah Jameson stands the test of time as one of the most perfect casting decisions in the history of film.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#75134: Sep 30th 2017 at 5:29:19 PM

Castle is by far the best part of DD 2.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#75135: Sep 30th 2017 at 5:57:07 PM

You spelled Stick wrong, Tobias.

As for Spider-Man and Homecoming, for the more liberties Homecoming takes with its material, it sinks its teeth much more into the spirit of Spider-Man comics than Spider-Man 2. Pete himself is characterized in a much more "hero of the neighborhood" Straczynski-ish way (which I feel is the "truest" spider-man) that resembles much more his personality and role in most comics, Vulture having a lot more echoes of his comic book history, the story itself being set in a much more typical Spidey story, e.t.c

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#75136: Sep 30th 2017 at 6:00:02 PM

I kinda liked Spider-Man: Homecoming, but it's mostly just an alright film to me. One with one of my favorite villains, granted, but I'm not as overly enthused about it like I am over some of the other Marvel films.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#75137: Sep 30th 2017 at 6:26:29 PM

Homecoming is adorable. Could have used more neighborhood, but the bodega scene ALONE got them a lot of leeway from me.

Edit: And Tom Holland is a better Spider-Man than Tobey Maguire in every way. Fight me.

edited 30th Sep '17 6:27:10 PM by wisewillow

Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#75138: Sep 30th 2017 at 6:28:52 PM

Homecoming was fun, but it didn't feel thoughtful in the way that most of the earlier Spider-Man films at least attempted to be (most successfull in Spider-Man 2). Peter seemed to be doing his Spider-Man stuff more at a tryout for Avengers than out of a desire to genuinely help people. Stark's large role removed most of Peter's tech abilities and undermined his status as underdog, which is pretty essential to the character.

I didn't like that no female characters had major roles in the plot, but I did like that Peter's first crush at high school was really just a crush, and not built up as the love of his life. Things ended badly for both of them, but it was more in the category of "sad" than "epic tragedy", which fits a high school story better.

Spider-Man 2 (despite Maguire not being a fantastic Spider-Man) and ASM 1 are still the best ones, in my opinion.

edited 30th Sep '17 6:30:22 PM by Galadriel

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#75139: Sep 30th 2017 at 6:39:37 PM

I really dislike ASM 1 personally. Andrew Garfield is a fine actor but the way Peter's character was written completely sunk the film for me, not to mention the "been there, done that".

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#75140: Sep 30th 2017 at 6:43:49 PM

Edit: And Tom Holland is a better Spider-Man than Tobey Maguire in every way. Fight me.

You have my firebreath!

That's worth more than a whole Fellowship by my estimation.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#75141: Sep 30th 2017 at 6:45:50 PM

Spider-Man 1 and 2 will always be among my favorite superhero movies of all time but I will absolutely concede that Homecoming is a better constructed movie than both of them.

This song needs more love.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#75142: Sep 30th 2017 at 7:28:31 PM

As someone who saw the entire Raimi Spider-Man Trilogy and both not-so-Amazing Spider-Man films, I skipped out on Homecoming due to burn-out induced lack of interest. I'm certain that Homecoming is better than Spider-Man 3 and both Amazing films from what I heard of it though,

edited 30th Sep '17 7:31:12 PM by VeryMelon

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#75143: Sep 30th 2017 at 7:28:34 PM

[up][up] [up]But not worth more than a Dale bowman, as I recall.

edited 30th Sep '17 7:29:37 PM by Gaon

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
TheMageofFire Since: May, 2012
#75144: Sep 30th 2017 at 7:33:00 PM

JK Simmons is such a great fit for J.J. Jameson that no other live-action adaptation has put J.J. Jameson in since!

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#75145: Sep 30th 2017 at 7:39:58 PM

I don't really remember tech skills being a big thing in the Raimi films either.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#75146: Sep 30th 2017 at 7:49:44 PM

[up]In fact I'm pretty sure the rationale behind giving him organic webbing is that they thought him building web-shooters would break the suspension of disbelief or something like that. The reboot tried to split the difference by having him design the web-shooters, but the webs themselves being something made by Oscorp.

I can agree that having him be so reliant on Tony did undercut him to some degree but I'm pretty sure that's the point, hence the ending of him rejecting the suit and the spot on the Avengers.

Of course, they look to be going back on that in Infinity War. The perils of a shared universe....

edited 30th Sep '17 7:54:46 PM by comicwriter

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#75147: Sep 30th 2017 at 7:50:43 PM

[up][up] Might be because those were the only adaptations that I know of that made Peter's webshooting abilities natural instead of a gadget he needed to build to do it.

edited 30th Sep '17 7:51:18 PM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#75148: Sep 30th 2017 at 8:15:43 PM

Dude, the guy is gonna fight Thanos, he needs every advantage he can have! Or did you not see the guy cracking Thor's head in the trailer?

As for Daredevil S2, it's quite obvious they put so much effort into the Punisher's arc that the rest of the Season suffered. I mean, I love the Punisher, but when I'm watching a show with the name Daredevil, maybe I want to see the guy with the horns rather than the guy with the skull, y'know? So why not make sure he's the one with the more engaging story?

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#75149: Sep 30th 2017 at 9:03:16 PM

I'm pretty sure they were trying to. It's just that The Hand was so terrible and the writers were seemingly unaware of how Matt was coming off.

There's a common problem related to Protagonist-Centered Morality that I like to call Assumed Sympathy. Writers assume that because X character is the main character, you are automatically inclined to take his side and thus no effort must be made in convincing the audience that he's right. He's the Good Guy, so he's right by default.

Matt had this problem with regards to Thou Shalt Not Kill. He spends many episodes talking about it, but the show never makes the effort to show Matt's rightness through positive tangible results. That his philosophy is correct is taken as a matter of fact, and all of the screentime is instead dedicated to the conflicting philosophies of Stick, Elektra, and Castle against him.

Castle, in particular, gets a ton of time dedicated to why he is the way he is, because it's something that has to be explored and explained when the character is approached from the perspective of Matt's Assumed Sympathy. After all, if Matt is inherently, fundamentally, indisputably right, then how could a man like Frank come to see things so differently?

It's ultimately the same problem that Danny Rand has in Iron Fist; the show appears written from the perspective that he is always right and so no effort has to be put into actually presenting him as a sympathetic, likable person with well-reasoned beliefs and whose actions have a generally positive impact on the people around him. It's not as glaring for Matt as it is for Danny, but it's certainly there.

If what I'm hearing about Inhumans also holds water, it would seem that this strange, Doylist version of Tautological Templar is becoming quite the problem for Marvel TV.

edited 30th Sep '17 9:05:04 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#75150: Sep 30th 2017 at 9:18:49 PM

I'll have more to say about that most likely when I'm done with DD s2 and Iron Fist, but that's a pretty common problem with bad stories. If you're going to have really flawed characters the audience is supposed to disagree with but empathize with, you have to communicate that properly. Having it be an accident usually has results that range from bad to disastrous because the emotional core of the story isn't working.


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