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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#74826: Sep 21st 2017 at 11:00:37 PM

After Iron Fist showed Buck's complete incompetence and the bullshit Perlmutter has gone through with his idiotic goal of making Inhumans a thing, I'm not giving Inhumans any benefit.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#74827: Sep 21st 2017 at 11:07:07 PM

[up][up][up](Major Spoilers) I assume they're talking about her being a spy for the Hand. Which never really worked for me, because I just didn't really buy that she'd was lying the whole time. Performance-wise, I mean. Narratively speaking, fine, it's a serviceable albeit lazy twist for a genre show to have, but I'm just not very convinced that Colleen as a character is a good enough liar to pull that off.

ArthurEld Since: May, 2014
#74828: Sep 21st 2017 at 11:09:05 PM

thinking someone is a 'good liar' requires you to think they are a liar in the first place.

Not being thought of at good at lying is what can make one an excellent liar. I know from experience.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#74829: Sep 21st 2017 at 11:16:45 PM

Honestly while I did like the twist in theory, and I did like Bakuto and Colleen's fight, I feel like they could've foreshadowed the twist better, I guess? Looking back at when Colleen first meets Danny in the show, it does feel really fucking dumb how they met.

Also, could you maybe use spoiler tags so you don't spoil Drake?

edited 21st Sep '17 11:17:17 PM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#74830: Sep 21st 2017 at 11:23:22 PM

[up][up]That's what I mean, though. She's not a particularly good liar in any other context. She's not one to keep her emotions to herself. Her greatest mistake is in assuming that the rest of the Hand, her mentor and her own students included, are a lot more honest than they are— and a lot of great liars are particularly good because they can recognize the various little lies others use to get through the day, and play off of them without revealing them. If Colleen's a good liar, fine, but it doesn't come across as a particularly consistent character trait, and if she was in that park specifically looking for Danny, a lot of her behaviour between that point and the reveal ends up seeming kind of pointlessly roundabout if the whole point is for her to keep an eye on the Iron Fist and/or bring him into the fold.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#74831: Sep 21st 2017 at 11:52:12 PM

The idea here is that Danny is inexperienced (I don't think that he was lying when he said he was a virgin) and has honestly no idea how to handle those kind of interactions in a socially acceptable manner - he basically does what he observed his parents doing when he was a child. Which is why Claire first sticks around but once she realizes that Danny isn't actually dangerous but more socially awkward and that Colleen can handle herself, decides to leave. I really like Danny's and Colleen's romance but in a "teenager romance and neither are truly knowing what they are doing" kind of way (and yes, I know they are both older than teenagers, but that is nevertheless how this romance plays out).

On a different topic, I would have liked the sales pitch scene more if in addition to a woman sexing up another woman, there had also been a man doing his sale pitch to a woman. Or to a man for that matter.

And no, this drug isn't a solution to America's drug problem. Did you miss the part where it is also particularly addictive? Those people who take it are basically forever Gao's slaves.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#74832: Sep 22nd 2017 at 12:11:37 AM

I'm a really good lier, so much so that I can hide a deeper lie behind a facade of being a bad lier about a more minor lie. I also have Asperger's and can very rarely tell if someone else is lying unless they're REALLY bad at it.

Also, I'm really saddened by the bad news about Inhumans.

edited 22nd Sep '17 12:13:06 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#74833: Sep 22nd 2017 at 12:46:44 AM

Doesn't mean that Marvel won't revisit the property down the line...at least this means we will get a proper ending, not like the nonsense they did with Agent Carter (I still want a proper conclusion to that one!)

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#74834: Sep 22nd 2017 at 9:13:40 AM

The idea here is that Danny is inexperienced (I don't think that he was lying when he said he was a virgin) and has honestly no idea how to handle those kind of interactions in a socially acceptable manner - he basically does what he observed his parents doing when he was a child. Which is why Claire first sticks around but once she realizes that Danny isn't actually dangerous but more socially awkward and that Colleen can handle herself, decides to leave. I really like Danny's and Colleen's romance but in a "teenager romance and neither are truly knowing what they are doing" kind of way (and yes, I know they are both older than teenagers, but that is nevertheless how this romance plays out).

Danny observed his father staring down his mother while openly, belligerently violating the boundaries she set?

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#74835: Sep 22nd 2017 at 9:39:14 AM

I've noticed that a lot of the defenses of Danny's character rely on excusing some of his behavior as him being too ignorant or immature to know better.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#74836: Sep 22nd 2017 at 9:43:04 AM

But did you know he got hit with sticks a lot as a child?

He's not adjusted for non stick hitting society

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#74837: Sep 22nd 2017 at 9:46:20 AM

[up]Right! In order to speed up his acclimatization, we should start hitting him with pepper spray, tasers, and knees to the crotch!

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#74838: Sep 22nd 2017 at 11:16:12 AM

Yeah, I can at least understand where he's coming from when he attacks Colleen's student with the practice sword. That's how he was taught. He's passing on the abuse, and I hope that gets focused on and emphasized as a bad thing.

What I can't excuse is what happened before that. Even though Colleen explicitly told him not to speak to her students, he takes over the demonstration one of the senior kids is showing and starts barking orders like he's the sensei here. Then he spots Colleen watching him and, rather than become self-conscious and apologize for breaking her rules, he locks eyes on hers and begins demonstrating his katas - a willful display of disrespect for her and her rules.

Danny was expressly forbidden from interacting with the students and he reacted by taking over the class, showing not even an ounce of remorse for doing so even when he's caught. His behavior isn't that of a socially awkward person who just didn't know the rules. He knew the rules, and he stuck his dick in them to establish dominancy.

edited 22nd Sep '17 11:18:11 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#74839: Sep 22nd 2017 at 12:10:36 PM

[up][up][up][up][up] Yes. Danny's experience in Romance basically boils down to seeing a married pair interact with each other and whatever he has seen in movies from the 1990s. Which were ALL about this kind of weirdly intrusive stuff.

Something entirely different: I just watched the last movie fight and there was a pitch for a Scarlet Witch and Vision movie I now really, really want to see. Well, not quite this way, but something along the line of them being trapped in some sort of strange rom-com and then slowly realising that the world around them isn't real, and finally they have to destroy the world around them in order to escape. I NEED this.

edited 22nd Sep '17 12:11:13 PM by Swanpride

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#74840: Sep 22nd 2017 at 2:53:22 PM

I mean, you're not wrong that Danny does disobey her and teach the class, but you're chalking it up to his male-ness and ignoring that he explicitly says exactly why he was doing that later in the scene: he finds Colleen to be a non-abusive and unsatisfactory person to teach her students. Him hitting the kid and him teaching the class against her instruction are motivated by one and the same central motivation: to teach these kids the same way he was taught.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#74841: Sep 22nd 2017 at 2:56:46 PM

Still dickish.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#74842: Sep 22nd 2017 at 3:39:48 PM

You can be dickish without the source of your dickishness being your white penis.

My various fanfics.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#74843: Sep 22nd 2017 at 3:42:34 PM

Well, yes. He would be boring if he were a perfect human being. Every character needs flaws and barging into situations and spreading his (sometimes wrong) wisdom weather people like it or not is Danny's flaw.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#74844: Sep 22nd 2017 at 3:50:55 PM

The issue Adric and now Tobias have isn't that Danny is flawed, it's that Scott Buck doesn't understand how flawed Danny comes off as. There's a dissonance with Buck's intentions and his execution, caused by his lack of foresight or writing talent.

edited 22nd Sep '17 4:20:26 PM by VeryMelon

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#74845: Sep 22nd 2017 at 3:59:59 PM

[up][up][up]

The source of his dickishness is Scott Buck being an absolutely shitty writer.

[up][up]

I'm not even arguing that Danny should be perfect, he's supposed to have flaws. I'm saying exactly what Melon here just stated, that my issue is his flaws are not addressed in a meaningful enough manner or called out enough to make them bearable. It'd be like if nobody called Tony Stark out on his womanizing or egotism, or if nobody called Peter Quill out on his sexism or immaturity. This is why he worked a bit better in Defenders, because you had everybody yelling at him for being a dumbass and calling him out on his idiocy.

edited 22nd Sep '17 4:00:36 PM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
ArthurEld Since: May, 2014
#74846: Sep 22nd 2017 at 4:00:03 PM

Its not like Buck was the only writer on the series. He actually only wrote three episodes.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#74847: Sep 22nd 2017 at 4:04:54 PM

He's the showrunner, his job is to run the show. To quote the definition from Google's dictionary, the showrunner is "the person who has overall creative authority and management responsibility for a television program". He's the guy managing everything overall, doesn't matter if he's only responsible for the direct writing of three episodes.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#74848: Sep 22nd 2017 at 8:08:41 PM

Looks like Peggy may be putting in an appearance in Avengers 4 too. They were recently casting extras for a scene set in the 60's.

edited 22nd Sep '17 8:09:03 PM by comicwriter

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#74849: Sep 23rd 2017 at 12:37:24 AM

I am always in for that.

[up][up][up][up] See, I don't think that the writers aren't aware of that. Because they seem to go for "flawed" with every single character in the show (except Claire, because they can't just rewrite her), so why should Danny be the exception. There are even a number of scenes which point out how Danny's upbringing really messed him up. To me the question is more if you are able to empathize with a white guy who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth and later on managed to become the Iron Fist "just" because he lost his parents along the way and was practically tortured into his abilities.

edited 23rd Sep '17 12:37:41 AM by Swanpride

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#74850: Sep 23rd 2017 at 2:08:43 AM

*Ahem* Batman. Tony Stark.

Don't haul out Finn Jones' excuse that people just don't like white billionaires. People can empathize with rich white people just fine provided they're given something to connect with.

Losing your parents in a plane crash, being beaten into shape as some kind of living weapon by monks with sticks, that's potentially quite the sympathetic backstory, rich with inner conflict in taking pride in what they made you and for how they saved your life while still resenting them for robbing you of your childhood. But it's something we're only ever told happened offscreen, and we never see and barely hear any of it— we never even get Danny's complete emotional response to it at the time, never mind 15 years and five episodes later. Even a brief monologue might have done the trick, one where Danny confesses what that felt like to Colleen or his psychiatrist from the second episode.

Instead, what we get to see is Danny blundering along assuming he knows best, getting to be special despite not being particularly good at anything. I'm sure these flaws aren't unintentional on the part of the writers, but they never really go anywhere— Danny doesn't really grow or change that much over the course of the season, and while he occasionally makes people mad, they're the ones shown as learning to accept him or acknowledge his issues, rather than Danny actually working through his problems.

As previously mentioned, this is the Netflix series that needed flashbacks more than any of the others, but for various production reasons hardly got any. Using Harold and Davos to force Danny to face up to his past is a big part of why the second half of the season works better than the first, but if that was always going to be the season's endgame, one or both of those characters should've been way more prominent from much earlier in the season.

I think my issue with Iron Fist's first half is that it feels like network television. A lot of these episodes feel like they're just playing for time, trying to fill a season, leaving just enough episode-to-episode intrigue to keep the viewer watching, dropping overblown twists and switching between arcs to keep hooking people, trying to ward off (hey now) Continuity Lock-Out. Which is completely the wrong approach, of course, since heavy serialization is what got people into these series in the first place and nobody is skipping any episodes when the whole season shows up on Netflix on the same day.

edited 23rd Sep '17 6:32:18 AM by Unsung


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