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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#74626: Sep 15th 2017 at 11:46:51 PM

I'm not saying Colleen can't be better at fighting than Danny, the part in the scene where it fucks up is in him essentially doing it to prove his martial arts skills are better than her own and to rub it in.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#74627: Sep 15th 2017 at 11:56:28 PM

Seriously, it's gotten to the point where people are claiming Mighty Whitey is in play if a white person is better at any martial art than an asian person, despite martial arts being a worldwide thing that has many masters around the world of many different ethnicities and many novices around the world of many different ethnicities. Not to even mention the vast differences in the various forms and styles of martial arts, all with their own unique background and many from countries around the world.

Colleen shouldn't be expected to be a better fighter than a living weapon trained for 15 years who has superpowers just because of the continent her ancestors lived on.

edited 16th Sep '17 12:01:39 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#74628: Sep 15th 2017 at 11:58:20 PM

Like, is reality racist because George St. Pierre is better at Brazillian Jiu-jitsu than a random guy walking the streets of Brazil?

My various fanfics.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#74629: Sep 16th 2017 at 12:00:07 AM

It's Mighty Whitey when said white person is raised to be the protector of an Asian nation. Iron Fist has always been a Mighty Whitey character that reeks of outdated stereotypes straight out of a 40's pulp novel. It's not that Danny is better at Colleen at martial arts, it's that he rubs it into her face just to humiliate her and show off how good he is, and then treats her students like shit, all while acting like a huge douchebag. It's not about being better, it's about him being a jackass.

edited 16th Sep '17 12:00:47 AM by AdricDePsycho

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Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#74630: Sep 16th 2017 at 12:06:29 AM

It's not because he's a white guy who knows martial arts, it's because the Chosen One in these things is invariably white. And even that would be less of an issue if there was some acknowledgment of the stereotype on the show itself. Still, even getting past all that, only two of the main characters in the series are even Asian, which seems pretty light for a show that leans so heavily on its Asian trappings. The larger problem in Iron Fist, Doctor Strange, Ghost in the Shell and beyond is that of treating a whole swath of distinct cultures as little more than a set of props.

The show never really shows much in the way of knowledge about its subject matter, whether that's martial arts, Bushido, corporate culture, or the whole continent of Asia. The other Netflix series were made with an attention to detail that impressed their viewers. If Iron Fist gets judged more harshly because of that, I don't think that's being unfair.

edited 16th Sep '17 6:20:57 AM by Unsung

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#74631: Sep 16th 2017 at 12:10:29 AM

I can't really expect much attention to detail from Iron Fist given who ran the show. I have said this before and I'll say it again: Scott Buck was only hired because they needed Iron Fist out before Defenders and they chose somebody who could deliver it fast, cheap, and on time, quality be damned, same reason he was put on as the showrunner of Inhumans.

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Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#74632: Sep 16th 2017 at 12:45:26 AM

I consider the show more a subversion of the Trope because it makes a point that Danny is only one of many Iron Fists and a particular bad example of one on top of it. Granted, this would be easier if we knew why he was chosen in the first place for the role.

MedusaStone Since: Jan, 2015
#74633: Sep 16th 2017 at 2:07:22 AM

Leaving out the debate, I have a question for Tobias: why are you still watching Iron Fist? I'm not trying to be cute or snarky with that. It's just, from your commentaries of each episode, you're clearly not enjoying it at all. So I'm confused as to why you haven't just said "fuck this" and switched to something you do like. What's the payoff for sticking with a show you hate?

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#74634: Sep 16th 2017 at 5:20:44 AM

It's Mighty Whitey when said white person is raised to be the protector of an Asian nation. Iron Fist has always been a Mighty Whitey character that reeks of outdated stereotypes straight out of a 40's pulp novel. It's not that Danny is better at Colleen at martial arts, it's that he rubs it into her face just to humiliate her and show off how good he is, and then treats her students like shit, all while acting like a huge douchebag. It's not about being better, it's about him being a jackass.

And he does this while constantly, repeatedly, even defiantly refusing her repeated requests for him to just go away. Failure to understand the word "no" is not a lack of social skills. When he looks her straight in the eye and continues doing what she told him not to do while not breaking eye contact, it is an open challenge.

That's what he's been doing since he's known her. From the first episode, he's been trying to assert dominance over Colleen. It's weird. He just latched onto her for no apparent reason and started shitting all over her authority. Trying to force her into accepting a place under him is like his hobby or something.

Leaving out the debate, I have a question for Tobias: why are you still watching Iron Fist? I'm not trying to be cute or snarky with that. It's just, from your commentaries of each episode, you're clearly not enjoying it at all. So I'm confused as to why you haven't just said "fuck this" and switched to something you do like. What's the payoff for sticking with a show you hate?

Three reasons.

  1. Second episode wasn't so bad. Third episode was the worst of any Netflix show, but they all have their ups and downs. I want to give Iron Fist a fair chance to get better.
  2. Context for Defenders.
  3. While I am growing to strongly dislike Danny, there are characters I do like. Colleen, Joy, and Harold are all a delight to be around whenever Danny and Ward aren't being wankers in front of them - and even when they are, on the rare instances when the aforementioned three get one over on those two. Also, apparently Madame Gao is in this. She was really cool in the first DD season.

edited 16th Sep '17 5:22:17 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#74635: Sep 16th 2017 at 5:48:49 AM

Those are good enough reasons.

This show has a terrible first half, but this being a Netflix show means it's heavily serialized. I'm not convinced myself that you couldn't just skip straight to episodes six and seven (I think the writers could've compressed and/or cut a lot of the events of the first five episodes without losing much), but there's value in these thorough dissections of each episode in turn.

Entertainment value, certainly.

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#74636: Sep 16th 2017 at 6:12:02 AM

The problem with saying "well there were other past Iron Fists who were Asian" can be summed up in one word, "past." They're NOT who the show (or the comics) choose to focus on. They're not even deemed important enough to appear onscreen in any real capacity. They're glorified history text. The one that we follow, is the White rich kid from New York.

Same with Dr. Strange. Yeah there were other SS's before TAO and Strange, but we don't see or focus on any of them. Who we do do those things with, is the White Celtic woman and the White Surgeon from America. In fact, aside from Wong, all of the Asian characters we see are glorified wall-paper/background fodder, and yet the movie spends a lot of time in Asia. And even Wong is underused, that's just bizarre.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#74637: Sep 16th 2017 at 6:18:27 AM

I was confused as to why Wong seemed so underwritten and then I remembered reading he originally wasn't gonna be in the movie period, and they only added him late in the game because they knew the Ancient One thing was gonna cause controversy. It was basically a very cynical effort to say "Racism? What racism? Doctor Strange has an Asian buddy!"

In the comics they seem to have at least somewhat grasped the iffyness, as the current Iron Fist series is about Danny training a girl who is next in line to inherit the mantle.

Luigisan98 A wandering user from Venezuelan Muscat Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
A wandering user
#74638: Sep 16th 2017 at 6:20:20 AM

[up] Here's hoping he may get better at Avengers 3 and 4.

The only good fanboy, is a redeemed fanboy.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#74639: Sep 16th 2017 at 9:17:16 AM

Doubt it, he'll barely be in there.

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Luigisan98 A wandering user from Venezuelan Muscat Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
A wandering user
#74640: Sep 16th 2017 at 9:31:39 AM

[up] Come on now, Marvel may still get a big shot in diversity with Asians. Just wait.

The only good fanboy, is a redeemed fanboy.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#74641: Sep 16th 2017 at 9:35:39 AM

Dude he's in a movie with like twenty five other guys in there, like hell he's gonna be important.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Luigisan98 A wandering user from Venezuelan Muscat Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
A wandering user
#74642: Sep 16th 2017 at 9:39:46 AM

[up] He'll get his own time with the guys, maybe not too important, but still memorable.

The only good fanboy, is a redeemed fanboy.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#74643: Sep 16th 2017 at 9:40:48 AM

Blind optimism doesn't make for interesting conversation.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#74644: Sep 16th 2017 at 9:42:37 AM

Wong has as much chance of a memorable role in Infinity War as Pepper does.

Or Sif.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Luigisan98 A wandering user from Venezuelan Muscat Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
A wandering user
#74645: Sep 16th 2017 at 9:48:36 AM

Let's just wait guys.

The only good fanboy, is a redeemed fanboy.
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#74646: Sep 16th 2017 at 9:56:35 AM

Hell Pepper probably has a bigger chance of contributing something to the plot than Wong since I'm sure Tony Stark is once again gonna have a very significant part to play.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#74647: Sep 16th 2017 at 10:05:29 AM

[up][up]

Dude, it's not gonna happen. I don't know why you're so fixated like it will totally happen.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Luigisan98 A wandering user from Venezuelan Muscat Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
A wandering user
#74648: Sep 16th 2017 at 10:15:21 AM

Just a way to see how the filmmakers can learn from their mistakes, that's all.

Or it's just a matter of opinion from you, that's all.

The only good fanboy, is a redeemed fanboy.
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#74649: Sep 16th 2017 at 10:49:39 AM

Yeah, I'm not really expecting Wong or any other non-Avenger play a super-big role. And even in the Avengers I doubt Hawkeye, Black Widow, Falcon, Vision, or Scarlet Witch will get nearly as much screentime as the film leads.

He'll probably be minorly involved in one action scene but otherwise drop out of the plot. Like War Machine in Age of Ultron, but probably not even the final battle.

edited 16th Sep '17 10:50:42 AM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#74650: Sep 16th 2017 at 11:12:18 AM

Anyway, I am looking forward to the thoughts of the upcoming episodes. I actually agree that the third episode is the weakest of the show. It is mostly filler and set up, and they overdo it a little bit with Danny's social awkwardness in it. And to be honest, I actually thought that him getting back his identity would be a larger plot point. It was a little bit too easy, even with Harold pulling the strings for his own reasons.


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