Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules
still apply.
- This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
- While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread
. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
- Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.
If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.
Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
Because Jessica Jones and Matt Murdock are *supposed* to be douchey. Characters on their own shows call them out on it. Danny's rarely treated as anything but heroic, and the show is more likely to shill him for jerkass behavior ("Oh, I wish I could find some reason to hate Danny!") without any sense of irony rather than give him any actual flak for it.
edited 15th Sep '17 8:51:22 PM by Unsung
Danny is barely sympathetic. Like, yeah, I get it, the dude's folks died and he's essentially got PTSD. He's still a creepy piece of shit and a whiny, entitled prick. I've ranted for a long time about how much I despise Danny and that's not gonna change, he is the single worst character on any of the Netflix shows. Kinda makes sense that such a douchy character is played by a douchy actor, given Finn Jones's douchbaggery during the entire controversy about his casting.
Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?Maybe you could stop complaining about Danny's whiteness and maleness like it's the main cause of his being an Arrogant Kung-Fu Guy while ignoring that he's a martial arts master and underwent Training from Hell for 15 years.
Seriously, jeez! Almost all of the masters at my Taekwondo school were white, most of them were male, and most of them were tough teachers. Danny's not being tough on Colleen's students because he's male or white, he's doing it because he doesn't understand the purpose for which she's teaching them and finds her to be a soft teacher if she's training them to be warriors. And, I mean, to be fair, she kind of is.
Danny's still a jerk, and he's constantly called out for it and lectured by other characters about how his lack of understanding is hurting himself and others.
Also, for your own sake, stop trying to insist the show not have Artistic License – Law, because it won't stop doing that and it'll be less of a headache for you.
Also also, your continued insistence that Ward is pure evil is very funny to me, for spoiler-y reasons.
edited 15th Sep '17 10:16:09 PM by PushoverMediaCritic
It's not just "artistic license", it's downright stupid license. And as for Danny, he may be constantly called out for it but it wouldn't be a problem if he didn't fucking grow up and learn from it. He never fucking learns, he's a huge fucking douchebag who shows no respect and outright treats Colleen like shit while being a stalker towards her, and the show expects us to think he's not a bad guy or anything. What he does to her is outright mansplaining and sexism of a high and disgusting caliber.
Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?When Adric gets like this, I feel like we didn't even see the same show. Like I fell in from an alternate universe where Danny is a well-meaning, good-natured guy whose sheltered lifestyle, trauma, and shellshock combine with the fact that he was literally raised to be a weapon used to smite evil combine to create a volatile combination that makes it hard for him to communicate and interact with people.
edited 15th Sep '17 10:17:49 PM by SonOfSharknado
My various fanfics.![]()
I'm really not. Danny's a huge creep and a huge douchebag.
Oh I am hardly the only person who hates Danny, almost anywhere else you go is full of nothing but criticism of him for being exactly what me and Tobias have described him as.
edited 15th Sep '17 10:21:02 PM by AdricDePsycho
Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?Seriously, you're acting like he didn't spend over half of his life sequestered away on a mountain in another dimension with no contact with the outside world being trained and groomed for the sole purpose of being a living weapon.
Danny Rand is a child soldier raised for the sole purpose of murdering evil, of course he's going to have No Social Skills and have a hard time adapting to normal society. The poor man hasn't had any contact with anyone outside of K'un L'un since he was 11!
![]()
Anyone can add tropes and they can be inaccurate. Somebody has Tony Stark listed as an example of Then Let Me Be Evil for Civil War, which is flagrant hogwash.
That doesn't excuse him being such an insufferable person to deal with, or the show excusing him for just that. Unintentionally Unsympathetic. Yes, his backstory is tragic, but he's still a really shitty and kinda skeevy person and he's hard to deal with. What helps make him better in Defenders is that he's continuously called out for his behavior and gets put down a lot for it, something that doesn't happen as often in Iron Fist.
edited 15th Sep '17 10:32:13 PM by AdricDePsycho
Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?I think it says a lot about Danny when the goals of the other three Defenders are "Fight crime because I have a compulsion to fight evil even if it will probably wind up killing me", "Take down the personification of rape and help one of his victims get justice", and "Defend my neighborhood and take down the jerk who killed my mentor/put me in jail" and Danny's motivations are "Gimme my fucking company even though I legally shouldn't own it because I'm legally dead".
Now, you can debate about just how moral Daredevil and Luke Cage are ultimately, but in the case of Iron Fist, Danny's way more selfish in a really offputting way that makes me dislike him immensely. Yeah, so he's got a tragic backstory, a lot of characters who have tragic backstories are hated by people because they're still douchebags. I'm not gonna excuse Danny being a creep because "Oh, he lost his family and he was tortured into being a living weapon", he's still a jerk. You know why his portrayal in Defenders is better? Because he has people calling him out on it more.
edited 15th Sep '17 10:54:16 PM by AdricDePsycho
Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?I think he just wants what he thinks legally belongs to him and wants to reconnect with some semblance of his former life. It helps that once he gets that corporate power back, he tries to do good things with that power rather than, as the character you described would do, splurge on his money like a selfish asshole and buy all the shit he's ever wanted. And oh, hey, once he discovers that The Hand is in New York that suddenly becomes way more important to him than corporate bollocks.
But no, hey, fine, whatever, he's the white devil.
My various fanfics.Except it doesn't legally belong to him. He has no stake in the company when he's been legally dead for years. And even with him going off to fight The Hand, it's still kinda outdated as shit for mister Mighty Whitey here to be fighting these aged as fuck Yellow Peril villains.
And you know what should be important to him? Doing his job as Iron Fist and guarding K'un L'un. End of the show, the whole place is dead and it's all Danny's fault it happened because he was too busy trying to get back a company he shouldn't even legally own. They're dead from his own selfish behavior.
edited 15th Sep '17 11:14:48 PM by AdricDePsycho
Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?Oh no. Dear God. A work of fiction doesn't have a 1:1 relationship with real-world business and inheritance law for the sake of drama. Stop the presses. Oh, the humanity. Someone, please think of the children.
I mean, it's not like the Hand that Danny was fighting was all exclusively Asian, either. It's not like they were the Daredevil Season 2 hand, running around in their ninja costumes, only worse with perpetually-squinting eyes and bucked teeth. It's not like Bakuto ran a Chinese laundry or anything.
Or maybe this is that alternate universe thing where I didn't see the version of Iron Fist where, once Danny took over Rand again, he used his wealth and power to begin a protracted and graphic campaign of genocide against the Asian population in New York or whatever.
My various fanfics.Artistic license goes out the window when it's so damn stupid that it's not believable, willing suspension of disbelief and all. And hey, great, diversity in their makeup for once, still led by an Asian woman, still Asian in origin, and still being fought by this one white dude who was brought up by an Asian culture to be their fighter and savior from the bad guys.
Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?It's not like Danny's the only Iron Fist ever. I'm fairly certain that the Iron Fist we saw in the grainy footage Bakuto owns wasn't a white person. Davos fights the Hand, too. And Davos literally says, and this is a direct goddamn quote: "YOU ARE THE WORST IRON FIST OF ALL TIME."
My various fanfics.I know he calls Danny the worst Iron Fist, and yet he's still the main guy we're supposed to root for, isn't he? Why should I give a damn when the main character is an idiot, is constantly presented as an idiot, but we're supposed to like him anyways even if his actions are just one continuous fuck up after another? And that old Iron Fist was only there for what, five seconds? I don't know about how they do it in the comics but I assume it's a lot better there than in here.
edited 15th Sep '17 11:21:21 PM by AdricDePsycho
Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?Yes, there have been hundreds of Iron Fists in the comics, both men and women. Almost all of them Asian. In fact, we've only ever seen two white Iron Fists, Danny and his direct predecessor.
My various fanfics.And from what I've gathered a good deal of them have gotten a lot more depth to them than the ten second dude from the series. It's a minor bit that doesn't do much to alleviate Danny's Mighty Whitey status, unfortunately.
Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?Danny doesn't want the money, he wants his identity back. That is what the show is about. We are talking about someone who lost not just his parents but everything familiar in live at the age of 11, was then "trained" (I would call it brain washed actually....) to be a soldier and is now trying to marry his rich white guy identity with the warrior identity.
And as a female I actually don't have much of a problem with Coleen not being as good at hand to hand combat as Danny, because it makes freaking sense, she doesn't have the same training Danny has (or his size, or his range). She is better than everyone else though, because she has training of her own which is superior to what others are capable of. And I am pretty sure that she is better with a Katana than Danny because that's what she is trained at.

I haven't seen many people give Matt a free pass. At least here.
This song needs more love.