Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules
still apply.
- This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
- While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread
. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
- Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.
If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.
Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
I mean, I never argued that they were being selfish, it's just that you seemed to be arguing that Pangborn had an obligation to abandon his old life for a new one.
And if you weren't, then I don't see how this was anything other than a waste of time.
Oh God! Natural light!I mean, every deliberate action a human ever takes is selfish in some way. Even if it's as innocent and altruistic as "I get a warm fuzzy feeling from helping others/I would feel guilty if I didn't help others."
It becomes a fairly meaningless word when taken to extreme analyses.
edited 12th Sep '17 2:45:26 PM by Anomalocaris20
You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!I'm sure Pangborn crawled to a phone and called for help, if he didn't have one on him already.
Also, to expand the fishing metaphor from before: it'd be like if you gave a starving person free fish and taught them how to fish and when you asked them to join your fishing fleet, they said no. They then only ever used that knowledge to fish for food for themselves, never offering any to friends or family. It is a little selfish, but it's not really morally wrong by any means, unless you think that fishing is something only fishermen should be able to do.
edited 12th Sep '17 3:11:32 PM by PushoverMediaCritic
I think you're confusing selfishness with self-interest. And overusing False Dichotomy in these "everything is meaningless" diversions.
edited 12th Sep '17 3:12:33 PM by Tuckerscreator
"Kamar Taj itself doesn't seem like it wants to separate that much. Bits like "The wifi password, we're not savages" and Wong listening to Beyonce on an iPod are cute, but they come at the cost of not really making it feel like Stephen has gone anywhere out of the way or mystical, he's just gone to some weird-ass, overly-specific trade school"
Also I most ask, how much time the movie really spend there? it feel...unecesary, they could just cut right into new york and set the base there and that it, it would save a lot of issues.
And the explanation of why the order of magician didnt move is ass all this time is baffling "we protect the magical world and the avenger the physical one" which it sound weird when a huge muder robot was THIS close to drop at damn rock into earth.
"Magic is science. Insisting that applying science to magic somehow ruins it is just willfull ignorance."
Yes and no, Science is about understanding how the world works, Magic have is own set of rules about how to BREAK the natural work to do stuff you want it, there is a diferent.
Also is have to do with how fiction portray magic, if you go "is just magic" then it lose is mysthical quality and become just another set of superpowers.
"and for last, Pangborn is not really selfish but as tucker said, just kinda self intersted, is a issue of "with great magic come greater responsability" Pang decide he didnt want the responsability and as long he dosent make fuss about it is ok, to Mordo there is fuss about it.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"Yes, except it's not a fishing fleet you're asked to join. It's a navy.
The organization at Kamar-Taj isn't, like, an exploratory school dedicated to discovering new forms of magic and educating others in the world about magic. They're a military organization. Their mission statement is to defend the Earth from cosmic forces that may threaten it. By joining the organization, you are expected to fight, to bleed, and to die in service to the Ancient One's cause.
You are being asked not to just be an educator and provider, but to embrace a life of violence and a strong likelihood of a brutal death in the near future. Kamar-Taj is not a school; it's boot camp.
Not everyone wants to be a soldier.
EDIT: Of note, this is also why Mordo feels so betrayed. He's not just a student realizing his master's full of shit. This is a cause he has bled for. It's probably a cause he's killed for. He's carried the weight of countless lives on his shoulders, carried the stain of who knows how many violent deaths in his soul, and now he's told it was basically for nothing.
Chiwetel Ejiofor was a fantastic choice for the actor because he's basically playing the same character he had in Serenity, but as a protagonist.
edited 12th Sep '17 4:14:08 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.This isn't really related, but imo one of the most interesting things about Mordo is how the start of darkness they chose for him actually veers him away from his comics path, so where he goes from here is up in the air and a bit of a mystery.
Kind of like how Zemo, who hates superhumans in general, probably won't be leading a team of them unless there are other circumstances involved, Mordo likely won't be making any deals with Dormammu.
They basically flipped his character backwards. In the comics he's a power-hungry megalomaniac who has flashes of some code of honor every now and then. In the film he's a man dedicated to saving the world no matter the cost but who goes to some rather extreme lengths to do it.
As a side-note, I'd actually to point out Mordo's conclusion doesn't exactly seem to be that only righteous people should use magic and the "selfish" ones should have their powers removed as much as magic is a inherently destructive force that lays havoc with the universe's natural laws.
When he confronts Pangborn, he noticeably starts his speech by making the observation that sorcerers are, by definition, problematic:
So his concept doesn't seem to be "let's rid the world of these bad sorcerers who don't use their powers for a grand purpose". Rather, he seems to have gone full on Hunter of His Own Kind and decided that magic as of itself is shit and thus all sorcerers must be eradicated. He's less a Kung Fu master trying to break everyone who knows Kung Fu so only the righteous will knoew it and more a Kung Fu Master deciding Kung Fu is the cause of the world's woe and thus he must destroy all Kung Fu Masters.
The intriguing question here is if Mordo plans to kill himself once he rids the world of these evil sorcerers.
edited 12th Sep '17 4:50:13 PM by Gaon
"All you Fascists bound to lose."He would probably use magic to destroy all other magic, and then rid himself of magic (or kill himself) to complete the job.
Of course, in fictional history, most people who do that kind of crusade wind up going full hypocrite once they're the only ones left with power, assuming they even had honest intentions to begin with.
You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!It's the classic, "I need the forbidden art to prevent others from having the forbidden art" paradox.
Which is basically exactly what the Ancient One was doing.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Sorry for double post but here we go. Iron Fist, episode 1. Time to rub some fantasy in the dirt of mundanity and make wild conclusions, unfair projections, and dick jokes all in the process of creating informed opinions about some controversial subject matter!
Questioning the size of people's genitalia makes me a real critic!
The swirly, punchy opening credits are neat and all but I kinda feel like Danny's wearing the Venom symbiote in them.
"That's my building!" "You should sell it and buy some shoes." First off, I love that retort. Second, I would not be opposed to Danny spending this entire series as a wandering punch-hobo. We've seen a few shades of New York but we don't have a hobo. Danny rocks the hobo look. If they'd cut out the part about him being wealthy from the comics, this whole show could have just been Danny drifting around New York drinking booze out of a paper bag while kickflipping muggers.
Imagine that. A woman is getting attacked in an alley. She screams for help. Some asshole sleeping under a cardboard box wakes up, sees the commotion, and spinkicks all the muggers into submission. Then he burps, takes a swig of his alcohol, and goes back to sleep, leaving her very confused about what just happened.
You know, I actually thought the receptionist would have called, like, someone else higher up since Harold Meachum is probably dead or something based on her reaction. Didn't peg it for security. That was great.
See, just like that. Danny dropping the security guards on his second attempt in is a fun scene, because he is a punch-hobo storming a skyscraper. I am curious, though; do these guys not have guns? I legitimately don't know. Are armed security forces not a thing in New York? That guy inside the elevator corridor had a clear view of Danny dropping the baton guys, so this was about the time to go for his sidearm.
"Ward?" Well, he's clearly Hydra. Even has the Hitler Youth haircut. I'm onto you, Ward Meachum.
More seriously, Ward kinda looks like Nicholas Cage and John Travolta had a love child. This is not an appearance that breeds trust. You look at him and just know he's a bad guy.
"Look, it's me." Keep saying that all you want, Danny. It's not that Ward doesn't believe you. He just doesn't care. I'm honestly not sure what you're even shooting for here. Did you think you'd walk into Harold's office and be like, "Hi, I'm Danny," and he'd be like, "Oh, Danny, my boy! Good to see you! Let me immediately turn over my company to an unshaved hobo!"
The fact that you are Danny Rand does not actually change the fact that you're a violent hobo who nobody knows or cares about and who punched your way upstairs.
"Get out or I will throw you out."
I'd like to see that. Ward may have Hydra training, but in the arena of unarmed combat, Danny Rand is…well, I've only seen him fight security guards, but he can't be worse than a random business executive.
There's the guys with guns! Okay! So it's just the front door guards who are hopelessly unprepared to handle a potential violent threat to the building. In the event of the emergency, the first line of defense will throw themselves hopelessly into the fray and die to buy these guys time to get downstairs and do something useful. It's an interesting strategy, to be sure. Not really one I'd go with. But then again, a Hydra agent runs the company so that might be a feature instead of a bug.
Cut off one head, two more will finally show up with actual f*cking guns!
I'm not sure I understand the decision to play NES music while Danny violently convulses over his PTSD. I'm not going to make fun of somebody for having PTSD flashbacks, but the 8-bit musical cue was an odd choice.
And now Danny's trying to break into his old home. You know, he reminds me a lot of Alan Parrish from Jumanji. "I'm home, so that means I get to have all the stuff from my childhood back, right?"
I like the use of parkour to get into the building. It does a better job of showing off his training than beating up the security guards did.
Hey, look, stuff's now how he remembers it. 'Cause he's been legally dead for years. Life moves on.
"Dad says rules are for pussies." Spoken like a Hydra agent.
"Here comes mommy and daddy to protect you." Jesus Christ, could they be any more obvious that this guy's supposed to be evil? He's basically the spawn of Satan vomited upon the Earth. Even the actual Grant Ward that I've been jokingly conflating him with wasn't this pointlessly nasty.
I like the face Danny makes after he remembers Ward blaming the Monopoly tantrum on him. It's the face of, "Oh, yeah. I was supposed to punch that guy. I forgot."
Also, the fact that this is Joy's house instead of his house from childhood makes this much creepier. He's not just a confused hobo looking for his life. He's actively stalking her, which isn't cute.
Squee! Hobo-crashing in a city park! I might get my hopes about this show just being Danny the Punch-Hobo after all!
I love Big Al immediately. I was only homeless for a year and I had a car to sleep in, so I never really got the Full-Hobo experience. My BFF, however, she spent a lot of years homeless as a runaway when she was a kid. This is exactly how she talks about it. A lot of people are on the streets and they survive by forming communities. She says that when you're homeless, there is nobody more willing to give to help you than another homeless person.
Media likes to portray the homeless as a bunch of dangerous drunks who scream and stab you if you turn your back, and that's awful. It plays into the right-wing fantasy that the only poor people are bad people who deserve it, 'cause they're all bums and crooks and shit. Big Al looks to be a fantastic depiction of the kindness that makes it possible to survive on the streets.
Also, I love that he has an iPhone. Homeless people have stuff. They weren't always homeless, and even if they were, you actually need certain stuff more than you need a roof. I will be so happy if this show chooses this to be its theme: exploring the nature of the homeless experience.
"Before whoever owns this phone cancels their service." …oh, f*ck me, I was just complimenting this character and now they're saying he has the phone 'cause he's a thief. Great. F*ck you too, show. Thanks for reinforcing the exact same stereotypes I was just talking about.
I mean, I'm still glad he's being kind and helpful, but did they really have to throw in that thief angle?
"You're living in my house!" Okay, that was supposed to be his house. That makes it better. It was accidental stalking.
You know, Danny, just kinda shutting up and walking away after dodging the taxi actually makes you look more suspicious than if you'd stayed and let her be like, "WTF?!"
Did they dub over Danny for the Chinese bit? Because his voice sounds very different. It's quite distracting.
I do like who they got to play Colleen. I was one of the folks who didn't appreciate Danny being white and that's going to influence the scrutiny under which I put this show, but Colleen's casting looks pretty neat.
Oh, shit, I forgot. Ahem. "Her penis is of a dissatisfactory size." Nailed it.
"An insane homeless acrobat. Call Cirque du Psychopath." This being New York, I'm surprised Ward didn't go off on a rant about superhumans cluttering up the city upon hearing about Danny's cab flip.
"Someone walks in who potentially owns 51% of the company. Even if it's bogus, the perception is that there's a leadership struggle." Props to Joy for pointing out how bogus it is. I always hate when Hollywood assumes that 51% ownership means you're basically God-King of the Company, whose decrees shall never be questioned or undermined.
And then Danny stole Ward's car!
So this episode ends with Ward having Danny arrested for grand theft auto and then Defenders begins with Murdock visiting the other team members in their respective prisons before going home and just face-palming at the fact that this is his life, right?
"The plane was never found. Their bodies were never found." Their bodies were never found and yet you know with absolutely certainty that this man can't be Danny. That makes sense, sure.
"None of that is true." And there it is. The denial that proves Ward actually does know he's Danny and is trying to discredit him. Can't trust Hydra, man.
"I'm sorry." Don't be. He's an asshole and he deserved that.
"That's where it all went wrong." So he's crazy and a thief. That's your sympathetic portrayal of homelessness. Thanks, show. You really know how to make me regret sticking up for you.
They're basically saying this guy's a hobo out of choice. Hollywood loves that concept. I'm poor out of choice. I live in poverty out of choice. It's my choice to suffer. It's complete and utter bullshit and I really hoped the Netflix shows might be above that. Most people on the street aren't there out of choice, numbnuts.
"You really need to leave." Okay, two things. First of all, being told to go away and then inserting himself harder into people's lives in reaction is becoming an uncomfortable habit for Danny. He is very pushy.
Also, she's threatening violence against him after she just said she's not willing to fight him. Make up your mind, Colleen.
Oh, wow, he's actually leaving. I'm impressed. I was all set to complain because I thought he was going to make her attack him so that he could beat her up and then she'd be like, "Oh, wow, your White Man Kung Fu is so amazing! I, a mere Asian practitioner, am humbled by your mastery of my heritage. Please teach at my school! Can I call you Master-san?"
Though it's worth noting that she's Japanese, not Chinese, which means he's actually a master of a neighboring heritage and not her heritage. He, meanwhile, continues to be white.
Nope. He impresses her by being randomly ambushed by the Rand security corps, who were able to track a homeless man to an unaffiliated dojo they have no reason to believe he'd be in attendance at by…following the smell, I guess.
I was disappointed with the martial arts in the earlier security battle but the spinkick Danny used to drop the guy here was pretty neat.
And then Danny ran into Random Chinese New Year. Uh. Okay. That's another Hollywood thing. It's always Chinese New Year. Always. It's insane how often these Chinese New Year parades appear in movies and TV shows. For a show trying to defend itself from Mighty Whitey criticisms, they sure glommed unapologetically to a huge stereotype.
I like how Danny thinks that shitty mask is going to disguise his obvious Punch-Hobo attire. These guys know what his outfit looks like. He hasn't changed clothes since he's been here. He probably smells like 15-year-old corpse.
"Who sent you?!" The receptionist. Who the f*ck do you think sent the Rand security corps, you half-wit?
And then we cut back to Ward and, I'll be honest, I will be so happy if Danny marches his uncivilized ass right into the building and punches him square in the nose.
I mean, the fact that he sent hired thugs to murder Danny instead of calling the police just proves that he's got criminal connections. Like I said, he could not be more obviously evil if he tried.
"We have a situation. … I think it can wait until morning. … Of course. Right away." Hail Hydra.
I miss Cornell. I mean, he was obviously evil from the moment you saw him too, but he was also charismatic as f*ck. This guy's got the charisma of a dead fish. He's just not entertaining to watch. Hopefully he's just, like, Intro to Villainy Mook here to springboard the plot into the actual conflict.
DON JR. That's who he reminds me of. He's Donald Jr. All the douchebaggery of a Trump with none of the bombastic style and showmanship.
"Hi, Dad." Huh. Harold Meachum still exists. He faked his own death and is ruling from the shadows. Neat. So Ward is Don Jr.
I like Harold. He doesn't quite have the charisma of Cornell, but he's a damn sight better than Ward. Ward has Anakin Skywalker Syndrome, where I feel like you could replace every line of dialogue out of his mouth with "NYAH NYAH NYAH NYAH" and it would convey the same amount of information.
And then Al died of a drug overdose. Of course he did. God F*cking Dammit, show.
You know, I was legitimately surprised by Joy drugging Danny. That was a clever play.
So, this was the first episode and I'll give them credit for knowing how to build the suspense. There's a lot of questions to be had; it's not immediately apparent what the story here is. Danny's probably going to be emboiled in a battle for his parents' company, I'd guess, one that he wasn't necessarily looking for. I'd be surprised if Harold wasn't in some way related to their demise, given the framing. Joy's on Ward's side but it's not clear if that's out of ignorance or malice. Ward, meanwhile, is clearly, unapologetically evil and also incredibly boring.
I'm still pissy over Al's depiction. A show about a kung fu punch-hobo exploring the homeless experience would be awesome and much more interesting in concept than "Heir to wealth battles to claim his inheritence", but it remains to be seen what they'll actually do with it. Maybe they'll surprise me.
Meanwhile, Danny is white.
edited 12th Sep '17 7:24:37 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Ward is one of the most interesting characters to come out of the show. I won't spoil why, but he and his father Harold have a very intriguing dynamic.
As for Colleen and Danny, one thing that might help to know going in is that while Danny is a better hand-to-hand martial artist, she's a much better weaponmaster than he is. We don't see her actually bust out her katana until later in the season, but once she does it becomes pretty clear that she's not Danny's inferior.
You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
I actually would've loved it if Tobias actually got to watch the show without expecting Ward to get better. Your call, but I think that saying that Ward gets more interesting is kind of a spoiler in its own right.
A nuanced study of homelessness was exactly what I was hoping for out of a Netflix show, the way Jessica Jones is a meditation on gender dynamics and rape culture or Luke Cage really does have a lot to say about community and politics from a specifically black perspective, with a lot more specificity when it comes to the relationship between ordinary people and both the police and criminal element. Even Daredevil, the most straightforward of the Netflix shows, does at least have a lot to say about justice, law, and journalism— and honestly I still think it showed a greater insight into the corporate world than Iron Fist, which is saying something.
That she's a swordswoman is apparent enough by the fact that she teaches kendo and carries around a katana. It's part of why Danny's challenge was kinda stupid on its face. He and Colleen are not students of even remotely similar disciplines, so her accepting his challenge would have just been an excuse to have him dominate her in a discipline she's not evidenced to even be experienced in and then claim the victory as Mighty Whitey cred.
It'd be a cheap way to establish how awesome he is while reserving the right to go, "Oh, but she's cool too, even though she didn't get to show it off when in the presence of his throbbing whiteness."
Also, something else I wanted to add: even setting aside the "51% shareholder ownership makes you God-Emperor" thing I congratulated the episode for averting, there's no reason for Ward to seriously be worried. Danny's been gone for how many years? Fourteen? Fifteen?
At seven years, he and his parents would be declared legally dead. Stock is not a lovesick puppy, waiting at the door for you to come home. It's part of your estate, and upon death it passes to your next of kin. We're led to believe the buck stops at Danny, which means those 51% shares did not just float around in a vacuum waiting to be claimed.
With the Rands legally dead and no kin to claim their estate, the 51% of stock passes to the State of New York, which would promptly liquidate them. The state gets the money for them and the stock returns to market to be bought and sold by others. There is no stock waiting for Danny to pick it up after coming home a decade and a half later. His family assets are long gone, and the company is under no obligation to refund Danny.
edited 12th Sep '17 8:35:31 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Wouldn't they pass to the next of kin? Or the corporation they owned, depending on how that was set up? Legally speaking I would not be at all surprised if the the Rands' will was considerably more entangled than a normal will would assume by default. Owner/executive of a giant multinational and all.
edited 12th Sep '17 8:38:59 PM by Unsung
Actually Danny's challenge likely was to have her fight him with her sword. In a later episode of the show a character armed with bladed weaponry tells Danny to choose a weapon for their oncoming battle and Danny very pointedly responds "I am the weapon." and then decides to fight him bare-fisted.
By his logic, his challenge would result in Collen with a katana vs bare-fisted Danny.
edited 12th Sep '17 8:48:35 PM by Gaon
"All you Fascists bound to lose."

Yes, thank you.
People have been acting like when I call someone selfish I'm accusing them of being the actual Devil.