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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#74476: Sep 12th 2017 at 6:34:42 AM
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#74477: Sep 12th 2017 at 6:41:04 AM

Wong can have more potential in the next Avengers films though.

I would be extremely shocked if Wong does anything significant in the next Avengers movie. They barely used him in his home movie, why would he suddenly get a big part in a crossover with dozens of more prominent characters?

edited 12th Sep '17 6:41:53 AM by comicwriter

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#74478: Sep 12th 2017 at 6:44:02 AM

Assuming that things are 'beyond science' is the opposite of assuming that science is complete, I'd say. Beyond *current* science, outside our current frame of reference, tapping into forces beyond this dimension, this earthly realm. It's the idea that there are principles so far outside our current understanding that we couldn't even begin to describe how they work— that's what's appealing. And perhaps science could still eventually come to include those principles eventually, but the fact that it doesn't and hasn't, that's more interesting than simply saying 'Don't worry, this doesn't *actually* break any physical laws or change the fundamental nature of reality! It just looks like it does!" That undercuts the sense of wonder I want to feel. Science provides its own feeling of awe, and it's not that one is better than the other, but they are distinct— I can enjoy both. You can have both.

It's an aesthetic complaint. Trying to refute it by pointing out that there's no real reason the two have to be opposed or distinct is a solution to a problem people don't have.

edited 12th Sep '17 6:47:33 AM by Unsung

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#74479: Sep 12th 2017 at 6:46:57 AM

@Luigisan

That completely ignores the racism of the character being whitewashed while still including all of the mystical Asian trappings of the setting, purely done to appease the Chinese market and get maximum profit off the film.

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Luigisan98 A wandering user from Venezuelan Muscat Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
A wandering user
#74480: Sep 12th 2017 at 7:22:34 AM

[up] Well, that part bothered me as well.

The only good fanboy, is a redeemed fanboy.
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#74481: Sep 12th 2017 at 7:27:22 AM

The salt on the wound was having Wong, who's Tibetan in the comics as well, be now Chinese.

That's like making a Russian character German whilst you're filming something in the year 1944.

As for Mordo, I actually found his Face–Heel Turn fairly credible. Film always portrays him as the most hardcore believer of the Ancient One. When all her teachings, roughly, turn out to be a load of shit, he breaks down.

edited 12th Sep '17 7:28:48 AM by Gaon

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#74482: Sep 12th 2017 at 7:28:54 AM

I hadn't even realized that and now I'm slightly more disgusted by it.

[up]

I feel like they could've sold the turn better, it felt too much like a leap from him losing faith in the bullshit teachings to him wanting to kill all the sorcerers.

edited 12th Sep '17 7:30:32 AM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#74483: Sep 12th 2017 at 8:19:50 AM

Did he want to kill all the sorcerers or just take their powers? Because I didn't get the sense he killed the disabled wizard at the end.

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#74484: Sep 12th 2017 at 8:42:38 AM

Well, he left him to die.

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Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#74485: Sep 12th 2017 at 9:08:36 AM

I think his logic is plausible. Throughout the movie he is very adamant on his quest to destroy forbidden sorcery, dark magic and the like, believing himself a champion of righteous magic. But over the film he discovers his side of the conflict also uses dark magic (via the Ancient One using dark magic to prolong her lifespan and Strange using the Eye of Agamotto to defeat the villains, with the implicit approval of Wong). So by the end of the film, his entire worldview of good sorcery vs dark sorcery has been shattered, as he's seen "dark" sorcery being used for righteous purposes.

So, enraged and full of disillusionment that this entire life's quest to destroy evil was based on a lie, he arrives on the conclusion that if there is no good or bad magic, then the problem is magic itself.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#74486: Sep 12th 2017 at 9:09:46 AM

Ohhh no, is this the gateway to talking about how the movie portrays Baron Mordo as a stupid, violent thug because he's black again?

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Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
VoidsEmpathy Emissary of the Void from Realm of In-Between Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: A heart full of love
Emissary of the Void
#74488: Sep 12th 2017 at 9:13:27 AM

Where did that come from? That's not even a race thing. He sees people, or rather sorcerers themselves, as the problem. He believes that he is the solution by stripping away the magic from anyone who misuses it for selfish gains.

[DATA LOST]
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#74489: Sep 12th 2017 at 9:15:41 AM

Sorry, there was this whole big discussion that kinda exploded on here about it shortly after Strange came out, I shouldn't have brought it up.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#74490: Sep 12th 2017 at 9:17:41 AM

Assuming that things are 'beyond science' is the opposite of assuming that science is complete, I'd say. Beyond *current* science, outside our current frame of reference, tapping into forces beyond this dimension, this earthly realm. It's the idea that there are principles so far outside our current understanding that we couldn't even begin to describe how they work— that's what's appealing. And perhaps science could still eventually come to include those principles eventually, but the fact that it doesn't and hasn't, that's more interesting than simply saying 'Don't worry, this doesn't *actually* break any physical laws or change the fundamental nature of reality! It just looks like it does!" That undercuts the sense of wonder I want to feel. Science provides its own feeling of awe, and it's not that one is better than the other, but they are distinct— I can enjoy both. You can have both.

Well, that's not what Strange did. When the Ancient One talks about rewriting the source code of reality, she is not literally sitting at a keyboard hacking into the Matrix. Unless you can tell me which physical law allows for Sling Ring portals generated by circular hand motions and where in the film it was established that such portals are entirely in-keeping with Newton's Third Law of Reality-Compression Theory, the idea that Strange's magic was "just more science" falls flat.

I feel like they could've sold the turn better, it felt too much like a leap from him losing faith in the bullshit teachings to him wanting to kill all the sorcerers.

I did too. I could have done without that stinger; that way, Mordo would have a chance to develop more fully into a villain in the sequel. Watching him slide down the slippery slope would be much more fun than, "Well, I do not believe in this way of life anymore, time to get my murder on."

Especially since this film already proves him to be full of shit. While he bitches and moans about "The bill always comes due!", Strange manages to fix the damage brought on by the Ancient One's violation of the natural law by judiciously violating some more natural laws and nothing bad ever comes of it.

Mordo is, ironically enough, taking it on faith that there will be dire consequences for Strange's transgression even as his faith is shattered. He's mad at Strange for going against teachings that he, himself, no longer believes in. It's belligerent gibberish in character form. He needed a lot more development to make him suddenly declaring war against sorcerers to make sense.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#74491: Sep 12th 2017 at 9:23:10 AM

Well, he left him to die.

Huh? I thought he attacked him in a garage.

edited 12th Sep '17 9:24:05 AM by comicwriter

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#74492: Sep 12th 2017 at 9:51:09 AM

Mordo may not be intending to kill all sorcerers but he doesn't seem to care if taking magic away from people kills or hurts them.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#74493: Sep 12th 2017 at 10:57:28 AM

He attacked the guy in his garage and left him to lie there paralyzed, I'm pretty sure that counts as leaving him to die.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#74494: Sep 12th 2017 at 11:05:57 AM

I mean, if he's completely alone and there's nobody to discover him I guess.

ArthurEld Since: May, 2014
#74495: Sep 12th 2017 at 11:13:55 AM

Pangborn attacked first.

Plus, unless he lives in space, there's probably someone to hear him scream for help.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#74496: Sep 12th 2017 at 11:37:19 AM

Pangborn attacked an uninvited intruder in his home who was making clear threats against him first, yes.

I mean, unless you mean to argue that Mordo had no hostile intention towards Pangborn and only stole his magic out of self-defense, I'm not sure what the point of bringing that up is.

edited 12th Sep '17 11:37:53 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#74497: Sep 12th 2017 at 11:40:20 AM

Damn it, Tobias beat me to it. But yes, Pangborn was clearly being threatened by Mordo and was prepared to defend himself. Now, honestly I read the scene when I saw it as Mordo going as far as killing Pangborn but I honestly can't remember if that was his intent. I sorta got the implication that's what he was aiming for but I guess I'm probably the only person here who interpreted that as Mordo killing him?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
ArthurEld Since: May, 2014
#74498: Sep 12th 2017 at 11:43:36 AM

The point is knowing what Mordo would have done is impossible. We can only know what he did, and what Pangborn did.

Maybe Mordo was gonna steal his magic no matter what. Maybe he was gonna engage him in lively debate. Maybe he was gonna ask if Pangborn ever acted on a tv show called Law & Order.

What I do know is that all of the people I've swung wrenches at have been less happy afterwards than they were before. Well, except for that one guy...

Its just that, since Mordo didn't do anything until after Pangborn swung at him with a potentially deadly weapon, saying "Mordo went crazy and is going around killing all sorcerers" loses its weight a bit.

The point is that there is more than one way of looking at things.Maybe Pangborn is an innocent victim of Mordo's madness.

Or maybe Pangborn was a selfish guy who was lousy at his job and used his magic exclusively for personal gain (well the magic part isn't a maybe. The job part is).

Maybe both are true.

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#74499: Sep 12th 2017 at 11:52:32 AM

Considering that Mordo was against using magic that way, even at the risk of Dormammu destroying the Earth (he's that much of a fanatic about it), the idea that he had anything other than ill-intentions in that scene is kind of hard to buy, imo.

Don't come uninvited into a man's house, it's really that simple. People get shot for doing that sometimes.

And that's the point, Kaecilius and Mordo are both too extreme, but in the opposite directions. Whereas Strange and TAO know that there has to be a balance between both. It's why the latter two are the heroes (albeit not perfect ones) while the former two (however understandable and/or sympathetic their motivations might be) are still the villains.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#74500: Sep 12th 2017 at 11:54:52 AM

the idea that he had anything other than ill-intentions in that scene is kind of hard to buy, imo.

Is anyone saying Mordo didn't have ill intentions or that he was somehow in the right? I'm arguing the specific point that was brought up that A) Mordo murdered Pangborn or B) he left him to die.

If he left him stranded in the middle of the desert, locked in a basement cellar or on top of a mountain, yeah. But he left him on the floor of a garage as far as we know. Ignoring any family or friends who'd come check on him when he's missing and doesn't return calls or show up for work, it's not like there aren't neighbors or locals who'd hear someone screaming for help.

edited 12th Sep '17 12:04:30 PM by comicwriter


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