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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#74451: Sep 11th 2017 at 11:22:33 PM

Another big thing that held the movie back for me is the MCU's continued, staunch, maddening refusal to say that magic is magic. Thor and the Asgardians aren't gods, they're aliens. Asgardian magic isn't magic at all, it's super-science and they fly around in space ships and fire laser pistols. The realms are planets, the Bifrost Bridge is a hyperspace portal that you can apparently turn into a gun that makes Asgard into the Death Star. And it carries over with Strange. Nothing feels magical because it's not treated as magic, it's all fourth-dimensional physics and string theory and multiverse theory and all this other happy horseshit.

My various fanfics.
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#74452: Sep 11th 2017 at 11:25:19 PM

So, can magic not include multiverse theory and string theory or whatever as part of an explanation in how it works? Because it's magic, we don't have to explain it?

I don't buy it.

At the very least, if magic isn't science, then I think you ought to explain how it's different.

edited 11th Sep '17 11:25:42 PM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#74453: Sep 11th 2017 at 11:29:30 PM

I'm not saying that you don't have to explain why magic is magic, in fact, I want the opposite. Show me magic. Show me sorcery, with a dash of panache and theatricality and superstition.

Show me Strange trying to rationalize what he's seeing by quantifying how you can rend a portal in the fabric of space and time with something he read about wormholes in a book once (which has the added benefit of showing us that Stephen is smart in things that aren't just surgery, making it applicable that he is a quick study with an interest in a variety of fields without cheap-ass photographic memory), only to be proven wrong, to show that he wasn't even close, and then explain how magic works differently than everything he's ever understood to be real.

For all of the Ancient One's posturing, she didn't really show Stephen anything except a really bad acid trip.

edited 11th Sep '17 11:29:45 PM by SonOfSharknado

My various fanfics.
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#74454: Sep 11th 2017 at 11:30:36 PM

[up][up][up]Right? GOTG didn't skimp on the campier cosmic space trippiness of its source material (if anything it's a campier than the version of the Guardians it was based on) and that's worked out fine.

[up][up]Think it'd just feel better if they said it was magic and defied our attempts to fit it in the box of science. It's not just hyperadvanced science (which I'm fine with the Asgardians having as their thing), it's magic, distinct from our scientific construction of what we think of as reality, parallel and divergent.

edited 12th Sep '17 12:18:44 AM by Unsung

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#74455: Sep 11th 2017 at 11:44:20 PM

I like the "tampering with the source code of reality" approach, personally.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#74456: Sep 12th 2017 at 12:05:15 AM

I know it was longer than five minutes, but even the implied Jump Cut seemed to be less than an afternoon. It didn't help either that Strange acted like a kid throwing a tantrum in their room, ruining any sense of dignity or apparent "strength" he was supposed to demonstrate.

It's a small thing, but when they start explaining to Strange how they protect the various realms they define themselves according to heroes like the Avengers. It would be like a Shaolin monk saying "Unlike those Knights of the Round Table who physically guard the world, we seek to improve the spiritual nature of the people." It doesn't make them feel big and introducing Strange to a new world of thought and knowledge but more like a book club saying "You like that? Try this!"

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#74457: Sep 12th 2017 at 12:20:52 AM

[up][up]I like it too, in various other stories where it's shown up, but I think if Asgard was already doing the whole magic as hypertech thing, Doctor Strange was a missed chance to make their shared universe feel even larger.

edited 12th Sep '17 12:43:24 AM by Unsung

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#74458: Sep 12th 2017 at 12:22:07 AM

Wasn't it like 5 hours? Personally, I think that the magic in Strange certainly looked and funtioned like magic. They didn't even try to explain things like astral projection using anything but magic. Also, I'm pretty sure I remember a moment where Stephen tries to explain magic with science and they're all "lol, nope".

The problem with magic fighting is that you either run into Dr Strange or Harry Potter: you either incorporate martial arts into the magic to give the actors something to do, or you have most fights boil down to who can point their wand at each other harder.

edited 12th Sep '17 12:25:50 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#74459: Sep 12th 2017 at 12:25:19 AM

It was explicitly something like 5 to 6 hours; I forget which, but they say as much in exact words.

And I enjoyed the movie but I would like to see them incorporate more ranged magic into the fight scenes. There's a broad gap between "magic kung fu" and "standing around pointing wands at each other", it's not an either-or scenario.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#74460: Sep 12th 2017 at 12:31:37 AM

If said wand-pointing results in meteor storms and lightning storms and walls of moving ice and long-leggedy beasties summoned across the interdimensional divide that tear whole rooms and buildings and asunder when great wizards clash, I don't necessarily think people would mind if said wizard is standing there chanting and waving their arms around. And sorcerers like Doctor Strange can fly, too, or at least he should've been able to, so that opens up a whole other avenue for adding something dynamic to the fight scenes.

It really is the Green Lantern problem— there's so many things that these people can do, and we've seen them demonstrated in the comics, but a failure of imagination (and planning, in terms of the effects budget) means we never get to see the coolest things these characters are capable of. Magic is too much of a gimmick in this movie. Those big magic blowouts aren't just a sideshow, they're what you budget your whole movie around.

Doctor Strange's astral trip and slippy-slidey New York were cool to look at, but they didn't really make up for the lack of a real magical showdown. "I've come to bargain" is a great resolution, but there really did still need to be a proper wizard's duel in there somewhere.

edited 12th Sep '17 12:34:02 AM by Unsung

HisInfernalMajesty Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
#74461: Sep 12th 2017 at 12:50:41 AM

I wouldn't mind a Disney's Sword in the Stone-style Wizard's Duel between Strange and Mordo where they're just constantly shafeshifting and trying to one-up each other. Make it a who's who of all the random background monsters we've seen before, like the thing at the beginning of GOTG 2 or that rhino thing that's still loose on earth at the end of The Dark World.

"A king has no friends. Only subjects and enemies."
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#74462: Sep 12th 2017 at 2:31:25 AM

The tip-toeing around the existence of magic is really hard to tolerate at this point.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#74463: Sep 12th 2017 at 3:11:27 AM

They haven't been tip-toeing. They said repeatedly before Dr Strange came out that it was going to be magic-ass magic, and they delivered on that promise. Just because magic involves runes created in the air doesn't make it not magic.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#74464: Sep 12th 2017 at 4:16:06 AM

I don't care as long as the rules are clear. Nothing is worse than magic ass pulls.

Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#74465: Sep 12th 2017 at 4:59:57 AM

My general sentiment is that unless magic in a setting has no consistency whatsoever (to the point where being a sorcerer is impossible because "who can wield it" wouldn't even be consistent) then magic pretty much has to have an underlying science pretty much by definition.

Because all science is is figuring out how the universe works, no matter how weird it is, And in a setting where magic exists, that would include magic.

Now of course the precise mechanisms that allow someone like Doctor Strange to put on a sling ring and conjure a portal to a closet in a New York City hospital might be thousands of years beyond even the most brilliant scientific minds. But that doesn't mean the underlying science doesn't exist.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#74466: Sep 12th 2017 at 5:23:24 AM

I'm very interested to see how the other characters react to Strange's magic in Infinity War and if anyone (Tony) tries to somehow rationalize it.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#74467: Sep 12th 2017 at 5:24:23 AM

I'm all for Sufficiently Analyzed Magic, but that means it needs to be identified as magic at the end. The only magic in the Thor films is the enchantment on Thor's hammer. Pretty much anything else they, including Loki, can do can be explained as alien physiology. Which is fine, because the Thor films choose an answer and stuck with it, which is all I want from the rest of the MCU, what's magic and what isn't.

edited 12th Sep '17 5:29:20 AM by VeryMelon

Luigisan98 A wandering user from Venezuelan Muscat Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
A wandering user
#74468: Sep 12th 2017 at 5:25:44 AM

[up][up] And maybe Strange may retort: "No, It's just that simple. The thing is, not everything has some attached science in their mechanism as you think."

edited 12th Sep '17 5:25:52 AM by Luigisan98

The only good fanboy, is a redeemed fanboy.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#74469: Sep 12th 2017 at 5:26:10 AM

Science is just the art of explaining things. If magic has any consistent rules to how it works than science must be able to explain it.

The rule that any highly advanced science is indistinguishable from magic goes both ways: magic must obey the laws of some kind of science, even if it just obeys its own and ignores all others.

People seem to have this bizarre aversion to contextualizing the rules of magic as a form of science, as if it somehow makes it not magic anymore. Potion mixing is magic chemistry. Runes are magic writing. Magic is science. Insisting that applying science to magic somehow ruins it is just willfull ignorance.

edited 12th Sep '17 5:26:59 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#74470: Sep 12th 2017 at 5:31:27 AM

It's one of the things that I appreciated about Wonder Woman actually, they don't tiptoe around it. The Greek Gods aren't super long living alien beings just worshiped/mistaken as gods, they're freaking gods and are never addressed as anything other than gods. Heck everytime someone in that film hears the name "Ares," they essentially go "oh the God of War."

But perhaps this is changing in the MCU as well, since in the Thor: Ragnarok trailer Hela and Thor both refer to the former as the "Goddess of Death" at different points. So there's that.

edited 12th Sep '17 5:31:48 AM by Punisher286

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#74471: Sep 12th 2017 at 5:36:28 AM

Actually you know what? Iron Fist's Iron Fist can't be anything but magic, since its powered by gathering Chi. How this works is explained, but that makes it Sufficiently Analyzed Magic instead of Doing In the Wizard.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#74472: Sep 12th 2017 at 5:44:15 AM

There's always this belief that the MCU avoids magic despite the fact Loki explicitly, flat-out does magic and the fact Thor's hammer is inexplicable unless you explain it with magic (there's a whole discussion about it in Ao U). It's odd.

For what it's worth, I think they wanted Doc Strange to have the simpler, "light constructs" duels as a way to get around the fact Strange knows actually little magic. So he primarily fights with the most basic weaponry (the light constructs) and wins/survives by thinking outside of the box.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#74473: Sep 12th 2017 at 6:24:13 AM

Personally I felt like Cumberbatch was really not the best choice for the role. He's too obvious of a choice, and the MCU has largely avoided too obvious choices when casting people. Outside of him, there's Chiwetel Ejiofor doing a good job as Mordo even though the writing doesn't really back him up (his entire turn to evil was nonsensical), Benedict Wong being annoyingly wasted as Wong, and of course my perpetual disgust with the Whitewashed One.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Luigisan98 A wandering user from Venezuelan Muscat Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
A wandering user
#74474: Sep 12th 2017 at 6:28:58 AM

[up] To be honest, I had no problem in Cumberbatch's role in the film, I think he's a perfect image for the sorcerer supreme himself, nor with even the casting of Tilda Swinton as The Ancient One, given that it would be interesting if some people of other cultures could take roles of other ones as well without being too degrading, at least in my thoughts.

Wong can have more potential in the next Avengers films though.

The only good fanboy, is a redeemed fanboy.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#74475: Sep 12th 2017 at 6:29:19 AM

I also like the "source code of reality" approach. It allows for unexplainable things like Strange's flying cloak, the ever-filling booze glass, portals opened by hand, etc. without resorting to such out-of-character antics as Strange, a scientist, promptly declaring that magic is beyond science's comprehension.

Science isn't a thing, like a set of particles or a collection of rules. It's a mindset. A process by which people perceive the inexplainable by seeking answers. There are, in fact, many things that science does not understand, but that doesn't make those things "beyond science". The very concept assumes, quite fatally I add, that science is complete. That we know all the things there is to know and there's nothing left to discover. This assumption is antithetical to science.

Take gravity, for example. We've written countless papers on gravity. We understand its function in the universe. We understand how strong it is and how weak it is. We know how to measure it, how to calculate its effect, how to produce it in a stellar vessel. But if you were to ask, "Why does gravity exist? What, specifically, is the reason for it being a thing? What causes big spinning things to pull in other things across a vacuum, where no substance exists inbetween to draw them?" we have no f*cking idea.

Gravity might as well be goddamned magic for all we can explain why it exists. But that hasn't stopped us from understanding what it is and does, because that's how science works.

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