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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#74351: Sep 7th 2017 at 5:05:39 PM

There were two mandates, right from the outset, on Thor: Ragnarok. a) Make it funnier and b) Embrace the action-adventure aspects of the universe. Per producer Brad Winderbaum: “There were certain things that Kevin [Feige] wanted… [He] definitely wanted [to bring out] the comedic side of Chris, who’s an awesome comedy actor. And [he also wanted] a big fun space epic that’s not married to Earth. Just a fun adventure film that has big stakes, but also has a breakneck speed and takes you on a crazy adventure.”

Interesting that it was Feige's call on making the movies less Earth-centric. Wonder if it's him making a 180, or if the focus on Earth was imposed by someone else's judgement. Also IIRC one of the complaints about TDW was that it was too silly and a shallow action romp. I think the problem with that movie wasn't the genre and tone but the execution of it.

Luckily Brad Winderbaum was much more forthcoming on how Thor: Ragnarok ‘bleeds’ into the future Marvel Universe, citing Captain America: Winter Soldier as the template. Just as Winter Soldier up-ended the Earth’s protective force (SHIELD,) Thor: Ragnarok dismantles the galaxy’s protective force (Asgard). “In Phase One, we established this cosmology that involved Asgard, Odin and certain ideas that you thought were eternal and could never change. [Thor: Ragnarok] breaks them down in a very similar way to how Winter Soldier broke down SHIELD.” The effects of this “break-down” will extend far beyond Thor: Ragnarok, right into the next two Avengers films – with these galactic protective pieces off the chess-board, everything’s going to be ten times harder for our Marvel heroes when they do finally face off against Thanos.

Unfortunately, I never felt like this was all that well established, in contrast to the ever-presence of SHIELD throughout the first phase, even in The Avengers, which is probably the non-Thor film that focused on this aspect the most.

The info about getting to see more sides of Asgard is definitely welcome; always thought the previous two Thor movies squandered their vast worldbuilding potential. And of course they used CG to incorporate Hela's crazy helmet.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#74352: Sep 7th 2017 at 5:09:57 PM

Hela's neck muscles must be amazing.

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Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#74353: Sep 7th 2017 at 5:34:33 PM

I think it helps that Asgard was apparently hiding two of the Infinity Stones and one of the Gauntlets.

But I don't get a sense of how Asgard fits into Xandar, for example.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#74354: Sep 7th 2017 at 5:37:11 PM

Yeah, the time to establish that Asgard is some kind of cosmic galactic protector was in Guardians of the Galaxy. They did not do that.

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comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#74355: Sep 7th 2017 at 5:49:33 PM

[up][up][up][up]I personally felt it was less that the movie was too silly and more that the humor was directly tied to the human characters that a lot of people disliked. Don't get me wrong some of Darcy's lines were funny, but I don't go to see a Thor film to watch a bunch of human comic relief characters farting around.

I recall Brad Jones' criticism of the human characters being that he felt having four human comic relief characters was superfluous in a movie that already had the potential to be funny on its own.

edited 7th Sep '17 5:52:52 PM by comicwriter

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#74356: Sep 7th 2017 at 6:47:48 PM

Yeah they haven't done that great a job establishing Asgard firmly at all. Let alone as the "cosmic protector" or whatever. Whereas SHIELD was a constant presence through Phase One.

So I doubt that Asgard falling will have the same impact here as SHIELD's fall did in TWS.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#74358: Sep 7th 2017 at 7:37:37 PM

Asgard hasn't even been particularly relevant to the Thor films, let alone to the greater Marvel Universe.

It's basically just the place where Thor crashes between films.

edited 7th Sep '17 7:38:08 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#74359: Sep 7th 2017 at 9:44:46 PM

Always gotta get those shirtless Hemsworth shots in grin

Big shame he's never done much for me personally.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#74360: Sep 7th 2017 at 9:58:33 PM

Luke Cage, Episode 12!

"Alright, here's the plan. Triple cuff him." [lol] The fact that they even need to do this is a tacit admission that the cuffs aren't what's keeping Luke from getting up and walking away. Which makes triple cuffing him pointless.

"This isn't necessary." Yeah! What he said!

"I wouldn't try anything if I were you…before I got to the precinct." Okay, I know Misty's doing this to hint to Luke at how to escape without looking like that's what she's doing, but like five seconds ago she was pleading with Priscilla that Luke's innocent and shouldn't be taken in. I know it's a new episode but it's the same scene. There've been maybe two minutes since Priscilla left. Doing a flip 180 in order to sound tough makes her look really suspicious.

"Three sets of cuffs? Isn't that overkill?" I'm sorry, are you new? Is this your first day? Did you transfer in from out of town? Because that's the only way you've somehow managed to miss the fact that the man in the back of your vehicle, the man for whom you have special alien death bullets loaded into your rifle, is really, really strong.

Also, I still maintain that the idea of mass-producing Judas Bullets is deeply nonsensical due to the fact that the bullets clearly have a drill and an explosive charge. I mean, while the alien metal does not explain how they pierce Luke's hide, it does explain how they can function in such a way. When a bullet impacts a person, it tends to crunch the bullet. Any kind of tiny mechanism in the bullet would basically be a waste of money because it would shatter into a million pieces on impact before it has a chance to actually do anything.

If the Chitauri metal is strong enough to withstand the impact, however, then the bullet could hypothetically house a little device to spin the tip like a drill and burrow through the target. It'd need to be well padded on the inside or also made of Chitauri metal in order to avoid crunching into a million pieces as it collides with the invulnerable bullet on impact, but it could theoretically be done. And then the explosive charge would be primed by the drill and go off a half-second or so later. As long as you can make the parts tiny enough and out of this fantastic material that doesn't break apart when it hits, this could be a thing.

But the idea that you could melt down one of the bullets and get material for a hundred smaller bullets is pure gibberish. The only way that works is if the Chitauri metal just happens to burrow and then explode of its own accord, which it can do because f*ck you, that's why. As silly as the Judas Bullets are as a concept, they're nowhere near as suspension-breaking as Diamondback's claim of supplying all of the police with Judas Bullets via the melting down of a single one.

And I'm not even sure why that bit even needed to be in there. He's an arms dealer who moves Judas Bullets. Would it have been so hard to just say he has a hundred Judas Bullets that he's ready to ship out? We were never given an impression that Diamondback's in short supply of them until he proclaimed himself to be, which he did in the same breath he used to propose a solution to it. In the span of less than a minute, Diamondback introduced and then unsatisfactorily resolved a conflict which could have flowed much smoother if they'd just never added it in the first place.

Judas 2.0 should just be Judas. It makes more sense that way.

And then Luke didn't f*cking do what he was told. [lol] Sure, there's dozens of cops in this convoy with Judas guns and you were explicitly told you'd have an easier time getting away at the precinct, but whatever. Kick open the door, run like hell, and hope they can't get one of those dozen Judas guns trained on you.

These Judas guns aren't behaving properly. The first shot exploded on impact. That's not how they work. They drill for a second or two, then detonate. The rest of the shots just sort of hit stuff and never exploded. This episode doesn't seem to be able to keep its own made-up superweapon straight.

"Young cops always want to chase somebody. Me, I'd rather be where they're already going." Luke wasn't going anywhere in particular. He was just taking turns randomly to try and get away. So no, this does not properly explain your feat of Offscreen Teleportation.

"I hope I'm right about you." What. If you were going to let Luke go, then this entire charade was not only pointless but actively detrimental. A dozen cops could have bust through that door at any second. Luke is being actively pursued. Stalling him is not helpful.

"What are you going to tell them?" He doesn't have to tell them anything. He can f*ck off the same way he came and they'll never even know he was here. By his own admission, he was not chasing you with the others. This entire scene is pointless.

"Never outshine the master. That was the mistake Shades made." Seems to me that the mistake Shades made was getting double-teamed by Claire and Misty, but I get what he's doing here. It's the same thing he does when he claims that he's letting Luke live so he can torture him. He had absolutely zero control over what happened to Shades but he wants to make it seem like it was totes part of his plan all along and he's in control of everything.

Diamondback's propensity for claiming credit for shit that just sorta happened on its own rivals that of Trump.

"He's going to be bailed out." "What the hell for? That don't make no sense!" To get him out of police custody and probably kill him based on how Diamondback's been talking. Welcome to organized crime, you idiot. You don't just leave the man in jail so that he can roll over on the whole operation in exchange for a reduced sentence.

"One of the seven deadly sins, my boy, which I plan to unleash on dear old Carl." "Which one?" Gluttony, obviously. Which f*cking one do you think it is? Zip's a moron.

That said, I'm reserving the right now to throw that "Wrath" bit right back in Diamondback's face. A lot of people misunderstand the sin of Wrath. They just see it as anger. Loud, explosive, violent rage. But it's not. Wrath is cruelty. It's malice. It is the desire to cause harm. Wrath is the kind of shit Diamondback talks about when he pretends like he's on a campaign of targeting Luke's loved ones. It's an indulgence into sadistic pleasure, going not for the immediate kill but for the pain and drawing it out for your own sick pleasure.

Diamondback's a holy man, so he should know this. If that box just has some kind of neat superweapon to kill Luke dead, I'm calling shenanigans on him for being a drama queen. Which, at this point, I really shouldn't have to do. That's what he is. He's not a sadist. He's not a schemer. He's not a mastermind. He's not a scorned brother. He is a drama queen. He's narcissistically obsessed with the image he projects, waxes poetic at the drop of a hat, makes big spectacles out of simple things like putting a bullet in a person's head, etc. He lives life constantly playing to an invisible audience, carefully selecting every word and gesture for maximum dramatic output.

"I need to prove Luke Cage is innocent." Screaming at him about how great it is that he's going down in front of half the SWAT team probably isn't helping you do that. Which, between him utterly failing to listen to you and you promptly forgetting how vocal you are about your stance for the duration of it, I guess that would make that another pointless wasted scene.

"I don't dispute that we should be bringing in Diamondback but to get to the truth, we need to bring them both in." And again, Priscilla is absolutely right here. I know she's supposed to be the Strawman that presses Misty to defend Luke repeatedly these last few episodes, but she's a very wise and rational strawman.

"He threw away his chance when he jumped out the damned van. Now they will shoot him on sight with the mayor's blessing." Dammit, Priscilla, I just vouched for you. That is not appropriate police behavior. There is not an expiration date on reasonable use of force. If they find Luke and he's, like, sitting in his underwear eating Wheaties or something, they still have to arrest him.

"My family's in tatters and it's all because of Diamondback!" I mean. You were the one who killed Cornell. So.

I really liked the corner store robbery that Luke foiled. That was a fun scene. Lots of enthusiasm and entertaining interactions throughout. It served as a nice reminder of what Luke's been doing for the community, in contrast to the Judas Bullets plot he's enroiled in.

"I saw who did it. … He goes by…Lawyer!" I knew Shades was doing this, but it was still funny to see.

I like the Spartacus trick with a bunch of black guys wearing hoodies with bulletholes to act as Luke Cage decoys.

I'm legitimately surprised that Zip tried to kill Shades. I figured Diamondback would want to do it himself, being the drama queen that he is. Unless he did want to do it himself and Zip just jumped the gun.

"I was just following orders!" See, I find that incredibly unlikely, because I just don't feel like Diamondback would be content having Zip execute Shades. It doesn't sit right with his character. He'd want to give a speech, read some Bible quotes, wax poetic about loyalty and the fate of traitors, and then kill Shades. Zip strangling Shades in an elevator under orders is out-of-character for Diamondback.

And then Zip died the way he lived. With an admirable self-esteem woefully unjustified by his actual situation.

"That's a smart move." Goddamn teleporters! Seriously. This entrance of Diamondback's is only explainable through Offscreen Teleportation. If he's been here the whole time, there's no reason his voice would only just start echoing through the house right when he decides to reveal himself. What was he doing, hiding in the supply closet and giggling to himself about how awesome this was going to be?

…actually, given who we're talking about, he probably was. He sat in the pantry for hours with that shit-eating grin on his face, just waiting for the chance to call her. He entertained himself by thinking about how awesome he'll look suddenly appearing in the house like that. Maybe ate some of Mariah's Pringles to pass the time.

There's a head in that bag, isn't there?

…oh, it's money. I'm surprised. I was totally expecting Damon Boone's head. There was no reason for him to drop off Boone's head to Mariah, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't do it. He'd do it just for how badass he'd think it makes him look.

"Once I'm finished with Carl I'll evaporate, but don't worry. You'll still feel the occasional cool breeze. Sweet dreams, Mariah." Again, shit like this really helps Diamondback look cool and competent as a crimelord. When he's not actually interacting with Luke, he's a fantastic villain. It's just when he has to indulge that personal connection that his character collapses.

"And behold the pale horse, and he that sat upon him whose name is Death." Moments like this really reinforce the Drama Queen thing. He's not talking to anyone. There's no one in the room with him, and yet he's still playing to the crowd. That's how you know it's not an act. He's not just trying to seem quirky in front of people. He lives his life as though he is standing on a stage before a live audience.

I get that. I have a lot of that in me too. Diamondback probably wanted to be an actor or writer when he grew up. Maybe an evangelical priest.

I'm not sure how I feel about this Shades/Mariah scene. Mostly because Shades coming back for Mariah seems like a bad play. He should just get out of dodge. Diamondback has a habit of teleporting in wherever Mariah is to freak her out.

The box had a bomb in it? That can't have been the only thing in there. That's not Wrath. That's just Cornell's RPG assassination trick, except harder to aim. There was a lot of room in the box, so surely Diamondback took something out of it, right?

"What did he use? How did Diamondback do that?" "Something I've never seen before." Okay, there we go. So he did have another weapon on top of the bomb. Good.

This quiet moment between Shades and Mariah, discussing that night with Cornell, is another really good bit. It's quiet and yet intense all at once.

"He knows where Diamondback is." "I didn't say that." Shut up, Shades. Cage was trying to use that as a bargaining chip and you just totally pissed on a valid reason for Misty to put her gun down.

Oh hey, it's Discount Robocop. This is what was in the box? I can't say it's a good look for Diamondback.

"Goddammit, I just fixed this place up and shit! Y'all can't take this outside?!" [lol] I can never remember his name but I love Chess Guy.

So, this episode started off really dumb, but that must have just been residual dumbness from last episode because it got pretty good early on and then kept that momentum going. Right up until Diamondback showed up in his f*cking Robocop cosplay. I'm sorry, I cannot take that thing seriously. He looks like he's about to start flashing people in Japan.

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Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#74361: Sep 7th 2017 at 10:08:24 PM

"Chess Guy" is Bobby Fish, and his earlier line is the best line in the show: "What the hell, what type of Jean Paul Gaultier shit is this? What are you, a pimp stormtrooper?"

edited 7th Sep '17 10:09:21 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#74362: Sep 7th 2017 at 10:08:32 PM

It's apparently somewhat close to his outfit in the comics, but I agree it's pretty fucking stupid. I seem to like it more than other people do though.

And you also missed a little tidbit I kinda liked in the episode: the dude Luke meets in the store who does that rap about him later on? That's fucking Method Man from the Wu-Tang Clan.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Luigisan98 A wandering user from Venezuelan Muscat Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
A wandering user
#74363: Sep 7th 2017 at 10:08:32 PM

[up][up][up] Robocop cosplay...that makes the MCU sound sillier than usual. tongue

edited 7th Sep '17 10:08:43 PM by Luigisan98

The only good fanboy, is a redeemed fanboy.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#74364: Sep 7th 2017 at 10:09:39 PM

<.< I don't know much about Wu-Tang Clan other than that they're well known rappers, I think?

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Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#74365: Sep 7th 2017 at 10:10:37 PM

The Pimp Stormtrooper Suit is indeed pretty stupid, but in a good way.

That being said, it is pretty representative of Diamondback's flaws as a villain; looking like something straight out of the comics.

edited 7th Sep '17 10:10:59 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#74366: Sep 7th 2017 at 10:12:44 PM

Not just well known rappers, some of the absolute best and most influential rappers in the whole genre. One of the other members, The RZA (pronounced "Ri-za") directed an episode of Iron Fist, as a matter of fact. Their song Bring Da Ruckus was used in an earlier episode of the show, in the scene where Luke busts into Crispus Attucks and takes Cottonmouth's money.

It kinda adds a little bit of another thing to the scene of Luke stopping the robbery: he sees Method Man there and praises him because he loves the Wu-Tang Clan's music, while Method Man praises him for what he's been doing in the community.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#74368: Sep 7th 2017 at 11:26:43 PM

Honestly, the whole scene in the convenience store was confusing as hell the first time I saw it. "No it is you" and I was all "Who????" I mean, I really don't care about music apart from "oh, I like that song", I nearly never pay attention to interpreters and would most likely not even recognize most of the ones I like (and I am not even into Rap or Black Music - loved the soundtrack of Luke Cage nevertheless, overall). Anyway, I only got the scene later when they are in the studio. I love the idea with the holey hoodies, I just wish that the scene were earned more. That's what bothers me the most, that the public goes from "kill Luke Cage" to supporting him within seconds.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#74369: Sep 7th 2017 at 11:28:49 PM

For every one thing Diamondback does that I like, he does another dumb thing that I don't. His over-the-top preacher's son style of villainy works as written, I think, but Erik LaRay Harvey is just too cartoonish for me, and his flair for showmanship pairs oddly with him being far less of a public figure than Cottonmouth or Mariah. It's a weird mix that just never quite came together for me.

I wish they'd done something different with that suit, but Bobby Fish's reaction (see above) pretty much makes up for it all on its own, and the fact that it looks kind of shitty actually makes sense given that it's something Hammertech made. I think the biggest problem with it (and with Daredevil's suit, too, really) is actually that it doesn't go far *enough*. I don't expect a TV series to match a feature film budget, but Daredaffl's entirely leather costume looks better than the one they made for Charlie Cox (whoever separated the mask and neck, that was a great idea, albeit not from a protective standpoint), even with season 2's redesigned helmet— and if only this show had come out a little bit later, they could've cribbed off the costumes in Black Panther.

The discount Robocop/Judge Dredd turtleneck does look like armour, though, while still looking suitably snake-like. I kinda like the Mega Man visor, too. I mean, seeing as it's meant to be the butt of a joke, they could've leaned into the hokiness of it more than they did.

edited 8th Sep '17 11:06:35 AM by Unsung

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#74370: Sep 7th 2017 at 11:43:32 PM

I always kinda hated the Affleck costume. Like, if my powerset is based on sensory perception, you know what I really wanted? One of the least-breathable materials ever created by man that's gonna suffocate me.

My various fanfics.
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#74371: Sep 8th 2017 at 12:16:34 AM

Shouldn't Diamondback be called a drama king? I've never seen drama queen used to describe a man.

Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#74373: Sep 8th 2017 at 12:24:25 AM

Daredevil should just take Namor's closet.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#74374: Sep 8th 2017 at 12:25:00 AM

Doesn't have to be leather, though in fairness, leather does provide at least some protection— and neither costume leaves his ears exposed, which you'd think was the most important thing. But I wouldn't mind seeing some panels of ventilation fabric in between the armoured panels. I'm mostly just saying they could afford to make it look more like a costume, while still remaining relatively practical.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#74375: Sep 8th 2017 at 1:20:30 AM

I don't mind the notion that Daredevil's costume is padded considering his "let's take a hit" fighting style, though I do whish that it would be designed to make him look sleek instead of box. What does bother me is that his ears are covered and above all, that his eyes are covered, too. Honestly, can he make it more obvious that he is blind?


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