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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#74326: Sep 5th 2017 at 9:51:13 PM

The best part about the criticism that nobody really has a decent counter to Luke's abiltiies is (Defenders spoilers) that that never really goes away. Even in the ensemble against the Hand, there's very little our ancient cabal of magical wizard/ninjas can do besides hit him with swords and shoot guns at him, both of which don't work. They have exactly one weapon to fight him with, Elektra, and because she's narratively tied to Matt they only ever even square off on rare occasions.

In fact, if Luke's series keeps adapting his 70's bad guys (granted, those are really his only bad guys) but writing him as more or less the modern version of the character, that might keep being a thing for a while. Luke also runs into the problem of most characters capable of slapping him around also not really fitting into his series' tone, but I'm sure the writers can figure out a way around that.

edited 5th Sep '17 9:53:33 PM by KnownUnknown

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#74327: Sep 5th 2017 at 9:51:27 PM

Oh, man, what happens with Shades next episode is gonna piss you off fierce.

"This guy with a past criminal record was just picked up from a hostage-situation-turned-homicide, and several witnesses- including a police officer -can attest to his involvement in it, but sure, we'll grant him bail. Right out of the precinct, with no bail hearing, too. Why not?"

[up]To be fair, all the Five Fingers seem strong enough to hurt him too. Hell, Madame Gao alone was kicking him and Jessica around like ragdolls, and while he suffered no lasting injuries he was pretty clearly getting hurt.

edited 5th Sep '17 9:53:47 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#74328: Sep 5th 2017 at 10:45:33 PM

I don't mind people genuinely not liking Ao S after already watching it. I have a problem with those who don't watch it or only watch it in passing at best and keep sniping against it nevertheless.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#74329: Sep 5th 2017 at 10:51:32 PM

It's a sad thing where something that had exposure when it wasn't great got lots of better but now doesn't have the same exposure any more, so people keep taking potshots at it because the only memory they have of it is the one from years ago when those potshots were current, even though they're don't make sense any more. It's what happened to Aquaman.

It happens a lot in this sort of thing, because people tend to remember characters as they were most memorably exposed to them, and with both comic books and tv shows most people might in to watch for a while but don't tend to stick with them for long periods of time.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#74330: Sep 6th 2017 at 7:09:38 AM

maybe Diamondback isn't so much being an idiot but inflicting what he thinks is some kind of specific torture on Luke by letting him live his pathetic blip of an existence a little bit longer.

Hey, I just made the villain a thousand times more coherent and intelligent than the writers did.

Eh, not really. In general, villains dancing around the issue of how to take down their hero by trying to gradually deconstruct him or her, sparing his or her life while tearing down everything that matters to him or her, tend to just come off as contrived at best and cowardly at worst.

Buffy The Vampire Slayer did it best with Angelus, because like many of the tropes Joss used in that series, it was stripped naked and laid bare. Angelus was "deconstructing" Buffy because he couldn't take her. He just couldn't. He only survives his first encounter because she's too emotionally compromised to kill him.

Targeting her loved ones wasn't just Angelus's M.O., it was also the only prayer of a chance he had of actually winning a fight with her, and he is called out on this repeatedly by previous villain Spike. And it still doesn't work, because even at her lowest moment, losing friends and family doesn't actually make her stop being a really f*cking good fighter.

  • Angelus: No weapons. No friends. No hope. Take all that away and what's left? (thrusts sword at Buffy)
  • Buffy: (Bare-Handed Blade Block) Me. (jams the hilt back into Angelus's nose)

That's what I always think of whenever a villain waxes poetic about how he's going to defeat an insurmountable foe by targeting his loved ones. It's a bad plan enacted by cowards that's doomed to fail, typically only put into a story to pad out the run time and give the villain an excuse for wanking off on his throne rather than actually confronting the hero.

Going after the hero's girlfriend instead of the hero just makes you look weak as a villain. It's not cool, it's not intimidating, it does not identify you as a sadistic and dangerous monster. It means you're a pathetic idiot who doesn't have a prayer of actually carrying this conflict and so you're forced to pick fights with harmless civilians instead. It's callow bullying.

Fortunately for Diamondback, he doesn't actually do this. He goes straight for the kill in every encounter with Luke, at least so far. Everyone just sorta talks like he's doing this for no reason. I guess the writer thought it'd give him more Villain Cred to pretend like that's his M.O.?

edited 6th Sep '17 7:11:27 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#74331: Sep 6th 2017 at 7:41:27 AM

Ahem. "I'm Luke Cage! I'm Luke Cage!"

I think it's more accurate to say that Diamondback will hurt Luke any way he can, and if hurting someone else would hurt Luke too, he'd happily do it. This isn't just comic book villain stuff— criminals and totalitarian regimes use this all the time. If you want to draw your enemy out of hiding, put the squeeze on their loved ones. It's not an unwarranted concern that Luke worries that Diamondback will target the people he cares about, if and when the latter figures out who those people actually are. For now Diamondback is swooping around Harlem fucking with everybody for the lack of a more obvious target.

The operative words here are 'instead of'. An effective villain might still go after the hero's loved ones *in addition to* the hero. A fair fight isn't the only way to win. The average villain is a bully, and the average bully is a coward. That we see the villain's underlying weakness is usually by design.

Also, wrong thread for this but I couldn't resist: being weaker than the Slayer doesn't necessarily mean you're not still *terrifying* to other people, so I don't think Angelus going down like a chump whenever he fights the Slayer makes him any less effective as a villain. On the contrary, wasn't there actually an episode of Angel that established once and for all that Angel is the better fighter between the two? Angelus seems more cerebral and stealthy, while Angel is more physical— probably because Angel is more than just willing to risk his own life, he actively *wants* to suffer and sacrifice in order to atone.

If we wanted to tie this back to the MCU, I think that last point is a big part of what makes Daredevil so effective. He wants the pain, as much as if not more than the win.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#74332: Sep 6th 2017 at 7:58:52 AM

" I enjoyed Garret's take down...especially since it gets extra point of SL Jackson being there"

I dont because they just is talk while Garret become more and more wacky, the guy was good when he was cold mastermind and he just went all comic book villian at the end, it also was weird because they short of talk until death...something kill garret.

Also, what the hell happen to him?

Anyway, I disagree with tobias, killing others to torment the hero is not a bad think in hitlseft because it put the villian in what it does best: hurting others real hard, otherwise is like sport film were the guy cheat for something meanless like between the hero.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#74333: Sep 6th 2017 at 8:21:52 AM

I thought Bill Paxton played Garrett's slow decay pretty well, myself. He has a lot of superficial charm, but there's something off about him, and when he finally embraces supervillainous madness, it's more like watching the shell come off the nut than seeing an internal change in gears. All the early warning signs that could be safely ignored before become the whole of his character. And given what's happened to him, what he knows about the agency he works for, the way he sees his own abandonment and the body horror of having known he was living on borrowed time for decades, you could sort of see how he ended up where he is.

[down]Compounded with Kree space alphabet madness as well, true.

edited 6th Sep '17 8:48:17 AM by Unsung

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#74334: Sep 6th 2017 at 8:37:36 AM

Garrett was clearly overwhelmed by all of the power/knowledge that he absorbed, and went completely mental as a result.

It also happened to Coulson as well (albeit to a lesser degree) later on.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#74335: Sep 6th 2017 at 10:54:51 AM

But the way Garret went out was the best thing ever! You think that you are seeing the usual cheesy set-up for season 2, but nope, he just blows up. Still makes me smile every time I see it!

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#74336: Sep 6th 2017 at 1:59:15 PM

Good news, everyone! According to British Airways, Wakanda is a real place!

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#74337: Sep 6th 2017 at 2:10:12 PM

It's a (differently spelled) city in Illinois, and in fact the link notes that the supposed Native American source name was originally and possibly more correctly spelled like the fictional African country.

edited 6th Sep '17 2:11:41 PM by Hodor2

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#74338: Sep 6th 2017 at 4:24:38 PM

It really should've said she's from Takodana.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#74342: Sep 7th 2017 at 11:28:50 AM

No plans for Ms. Marvel in the Inhumans show, which honestly feels like dodging a bullet at this point.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#74343: Sep 7th 2017 at 11:53:28 AM

Why should there be any plans? She has little to do with the Royal family as far as I know?

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#74344: Sep 7th 2017 at 12:18:13 PM

It also wouldn't make a ton of sense since we're still almost two years away from seeing Carol Danvers for the first time.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#74345: Sep 7th 2017 at 12:26:56 PM

Since I am currently linking Brows held high stuff....this vid is certainly worth discussing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNbJb1NEGUk&t=9s

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#74346: Sep 7th 2017 at 12:30:50 PM

For future reference, could you please give a description for the link when you post it? There's kind of a rule about that.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#74347: Sep 7th 2017 at 12:45:14 PM

[up] Sorry....it is about Metatext in Superhero movies by discussing Backaroo Bonzai.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#74348: Sep 7th 2017 at 1:38:39 PM

"But the way Garret went out was the best thing ever! You think that you are seeing the usual cheesy set-up for season 2, but nope, he just blows up. Still makes me smile every time I see it! "

Yeah I hate that, I feel the typical "we are not serious, just cleaver and ironic, *wink* *wink*" it just feel Garret drop A LOT of menacing nature at the end, just taking and taking while they take him down.

Anyway, I have seen a lot of people complaing about how Marvel turning inhuman into the X Men and all....and really Im not that annoyed because of it, I feel more natural because it have some sort of explanation rather than just "suddenly, mutants!" lying down for whatever reason.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#74349: Sep 7th 2017 at 1:55:52 PM

Originally it was because the proliferation of nuclear weapons and energy specifically. The earliest mutants appearing (publishing wise, not in-universe timeline) could often trace their origin to their parents being involved in nuclear research. Or explosions.

Of course then the number of mutants ballooned past reasonable explanations like that and you started getting mutants that showed up way before nuclear research was a thing so it was mostly downplayed but you still do get some Children of the Atom stuff.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#74350: Sep 7th 2017 at 2:03:00 PM

In X Men First Class Xavier has a off-hand line mentioning the current ("current" meaning the 1960's) surge of mutants in the world was likely a result of the multitude of nuclear experiments in recent decades.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."

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