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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#74201: Aug 31st 2017 at 10:38:31 AM

Yeah, being a fan does not stop one from being critical (in many cases, it's quite the opposite, frankly).

In any case, Lindsey is welcome to her opinions on the MCU - I agree with some of them, while disagreeing with others.

Oh God! Natural light!
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#74202: Aug 31st 2017 at 11:04:03 AM

And nothing she says is overly negative anyway. "Some of the movies suffer from Continuity Lock-Out and Ultron was a lame villain" are criticisms I see fans of the MCU make all the time. Often in this very thread.

There's nothing particularly venomous about it.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#74203: Aug 31st 2017 at 11:39:03 AM

What S.H.I.E.L.D. was doing with Project Insight was always a conspiracy: it's a plan they were putting in place to dramatically change/control the world without the public's knowledge. It just turns out there was also a conspiracy within that conspiracy, with I think was meant as a sort of "not so great when the shoe's on the other foot, huh?" thing.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#74204: Aug 31st 2017 at 12:21:31 PM

Just watched the video, it's a very good analysis of the film.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#74205: Aug 31st 2017 at 1:15:40 PM

Lindsey mostly falls into the "It's okay, but it is mostly not for me" category. Which makes it even more interesting when one of the movies get to her nevertheless. Plus, she can be very critical of Disney, too.

The Winter Soldier and Civil War are both extremely topical, mostly because Hydra has become extremely topical.

I tend to agree with her, btw, I am all about characters in movies, too.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#74206: Aug 31st 2017 at 1:26:37 PM

I've seen a lot of accusations on Tumblr recently towards the Cap trilogy (particularly Civil War) and Agents of SHIELD (which I'm less familiar with) as thinly veiled pro-fascist and pro-imperialist propaganda. Citing that Captain America's continuous refusal to obey the government is tantamount to America declaring that it can stomp all over the rights of other countries. Personally I always saw Cap as (at least intended to be) an anti-authoritarian figure.

Although, there's some overlap between this and hatred at the film and Marvel Studios in general for glorifying Tony Stark by portraying him in a sympathetic light instead of as an unambiguous villain, as accusations towards him being a walking mouthpiece for the virtues of imperialism are way more commonplace.

Some of it's a bit by Tumblr's general negativity towards Civil War, as it was with Age of Ultron, being largely motivated more by salty shippers coming up with posthoc reasons to be mad at the film than legitimate issues with the writing (e.g. "Cap is acting wildly OOC because the film didn't end with him and Bucky getting married, adopting a dog, and starting a coffeeshop together"). But the most vocal about the imperialist themes seem to be sincere.

edited 31st Aug '17 1:37:23 PM by AlleyOop

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#74207: Aug 31st 2017 at 1:30:15 PM

Can't comment on the Cap trilogy but Agents of SHIELD did an entire arc that was quite blunt in how it criticized fascism and Nazism, particularly related to the Trump administration. Like, they literally mentioned "fake news" and "Nevertheless, she persisted" and had their own Fox News stand-in.

edited 31st Aug '17 1:32:18 PM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#74208: Aug 31st 2017 at 1:32:46 PM

Hmm, the complaints seemed to be that the agents were committing war crimes and infringing on the rights of the Inhumans by literally denying their personhood. If they were though, I don't think they were supposed to be seen as right in doing so, since the Inhumans are portrayed as sympathetic.

edited 31st Aug '17 1:35:00 PM by AlleyOop

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#74209: Aug 31st 2017 at 1:35:02 PM

I'm assuming that might have been from Season 2, which they were definitely shown as in the wrong for some bigoted actions against the Inhumans.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#74210: Aug 31st 2017 at 1:40:59 PM

Yeah, that sounds about right. And I thought as much, given that the Inhumans were seen as standins for mutants I find it hard to believe the show would portray discriminating against them as being the "right" thing to do on an extradiegetic level. Though there's some arguments and discussion about how portraying protagonists as people who commit morally questionable actions is a form of subliminal glorification via Do Not Do This Cool Thing, I heavily doubt the show would actually cross that line like that.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#74211: Aug 31st 2017 at 1:53:33 PM

I mean, on some level I can sort of get that but pretty much all superhero stories have fascist overtones to some degree, since the very premise involves extraordinary people deciding they don't have to obey the law and know better than those in charge. It's not just superheroes either, pretty much any sort of vigilante tale is gonna fall into that. It's basically a Necessary Weasel at this point.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#74212: Aug 31st 2017 at 1:54:38 PM

I'm not normally one for slamming Tumblr's userbase, but I can't help but snicker at them sometimes.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#74213: Aug 31st 2017 at 2:02:07 PM

I just find the idea that the movie was wrong for giving Tony a sympathetic position and not making him a jackbooted fascist strawman like in the comic to be kind of hilarious.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#74214: Aug 31st 2017 at 2:33:18 PM

The thing with the second season of Ao S is that it does acknowledge that people who are afraid of the Inhumans aren't necessarily totally wrong. They have been created to be weapons after all, and for a normal person the notion that the guy next to you can turn into a flame thrower whenever he wants is terrifying. But it also points out that if we allow those fears to control us and stop treating Inhumans like humans, the consequences are pretty terrifying. It is all about the balance in Ao S. And in The Winter Soldier btw, too. Even Cap acknowledges that his generation did some questionable things during WWII, but he claims that they did it in reaction to a greater evil. That is pretty much the difference between his stance, Fury's stance and Pierce stance. Cap is ready to wait what people do and then react to their actions. Fury doesn't trust people, so he wants to have them under constant surveillance so that he can arrest them before they can do something bad. Pierce simply wants to kill everyone who doesn't agree with him...and the main point in the movie is that Fury's stance isn't that far away from Pierce.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#74215: Aug 31st 2017 at 2:42:13 PM

[up][up][up] The times they actually manage to tamp the vitriol down they can make for interesting reads. Even if the conclusions are way off base or a blatant misreading of the work it's still helpful to get another outside perspective on a work's writing and its (in)ability to convey certain messages.

[up][up] Yeah now that you point that out it is actually pretty ironic and fucking hilarious.

edited 31st Aug '17 2:42:36 PM by AlleyOop

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#74216: Aug 31st 2017 at 3:14:17 PM

" Personally I always saw Cap as (at least intended to be) an anti-authoritarian figure."

Pretty much, at worst you can see Cap as the entitled american who decide the goverment is inmoral when it come to is pet issues(in this case, the sokovia accords) but imperalist? meh.

"ap is ready to wait what people do and then react to their actions."

Problem is Civil war show he is disdainfull to others as well and it can come across as hypocrital "I did what I have to do but you dont" and Pierce point is not killing people is that sometimes you have to be a murderous dick to protect people...which is kinda close to Fury way of being.

edited 31st Aug '17 3:15:48 PM by unknowing

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
shatterstar Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I wanna know about these strangers like me
#74217: Aug 31st 2017 at 3:18:54 PM

[up][up] It's Tumblr. If a post in a fandom is reasonable, 90% that it will be about shipping.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#74218: Aug 31st 2017 at 3:24:26 PM

Steve isn't anti-Authoritarian at all. He has no problems whatsoever to follow reasonable leaders. But he also doesn't believe in blind obedience. And he is actually supposed to stand for America - not the America which exist, but the ideal of America. Granted, how this ideal looks like adjusts slightly with times, but the basic boils down to Steve's sense of fairness.

I have little use for people who cherrypick in order to confirm an opinion they already had. I prefer reviewers who give me a new perspective. I don't have to agree with said perspective, but I need to get a sense of where the reviewer is coming from.

Interestingly Lindsey actually missed a few minor points in her own argument. For example she points out the Peter is kicking animals for fun in his big dancing scene, but she somehow missed that this contrast to what we knew about kid Peter, that he was ready to take on a group of boys stronger than him because of a frog. This is the Peter the audience encounters first, and therefore it is ready to cut him some slack later on because, hey, he was raised by abusive space pirates, but hopefully something of this little boy is still in his character (spoiler alert: It is).

edited 31st Aug '17 3:29:24 PM by Swanpride

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#74219: Aug 31st 2017 at 3:32:49 PM

[up] When did the frog thing come up, again?

In any case, even if she didn't bring up that specific part, she did note that the reason Peter acts the way he does is because of Yondu.

Oh God! Natural light!
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#74220: Aug 31st 2017 at 3:37:46 PM

[up] I know, but that detail would have underlined her point.

At the very beginning when he visits his mother. Her first question is where the black eye is from and he mumbles the story about the frog.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#74221: Aug 31st 2017 at 3:43:57 PM

I just figured "well, the space rat kicking is kinda mean, but they are trying to bite him..."

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#74222: Aug 31st 2017 at 4:22:37 PM

I like when he grabs one and uses it as a mic.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#74223: Aug 31st 2017 at 4:55:58 PM

I have no problem with someone kicking vicious space rats.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#74224: Aug 31st 2017 at 5:08:53 PM

Vicious space rats serve a vital role in a vicious space ecosystem

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#74225: Aug 31st 2017 at 6:12:06 PM

See, it's the vicious part I have a problem with.


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