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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#74151: Aug 30th 2017 at 9:50:49 PM

At least Luke actually does take Diamondback down later on, so you've got that to look forward to.

And if anything, isn't it kind of formulaic now on the Netflix shows to replace the starting villain with a new one? Out of the six seasons of Netflix material, only two seasons don't do that.

edited 30th Aug '17 9:52:11 PM by AdricDePsycho

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Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
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#74152: Aug 30th 2017 at 9:53:24 PM

[up][up]Yeah, but this is episode 7, second act time. Belly of the beast. Luke had effectively destroyed Cottonmouth as a threat— even if he had gotten out of jail time, as you've noted, Stokes ability to project a sense of menace was long since spent. That was true in-universe, as well. Someone would've gotten him sooner or later. That it happens to have been Mariah is poetic, I think.

[up]Not sure I understand what you mean, but I suppose talking about it would be spoileriffic for Tobias. Nuke is a secondary villain for Jessica Jones, but at no point does he supplant Kilgrave, so I wouldn't count that. Punisher and The Hand are an odd example, since the bulk of the season is far more focused on Punisher as a secondary protagonist and Elektra as a love interest— there isn't exactly a proper Big Bad. Iron Fist has more villains than it knows what to do with between Gao, Harold, and Bakuto, and doesn't really seem to have a great idea of how to connect them into cohesive arc. But yes, Elektra taking over from Alexandra was very much a poor man's Cottonmouth/Mariah swap. And Luke Cage didn't even stick the landing on Mariah's Start of Darkness, but I won't get into that until I can talk about it without spoilers.

edited 30th Aug '17 10:09:03 PM by Unsung

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#74153: Aug 30th 2017 at 10:00:59 PM

Nah, Luke should've just beaten Cottonmouth to death.

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#74154: Aug 30th 2017 at 10:03:57 PM

Stokes's ability to project menace was spent way back in episode 2, when Cage hit Fort Knox. He spent more time being a paper tiger than a legitimately dangerous bad guy. Having him arrested by Cage and Misty's actions at least gave some justification for dragging him along for this long, because it allowed Cage to follow up on the repeated statements he made about taking down Cornell by actually doing it.

That arrest meant something. It showed that Cage didn't have to bloody his hands to affect change in Harlem, and it allowed Misty's subplot to achieve some results that made her hard work and losses worthwhile.

The only reason Mariah doing it comes across as poetic is because this very same episode spent a lot of screentime building up to it. Mariah killing Cornell isn't the resolution to a longstanding subplot that's been running since the beginning of the series. It's the resolution to a bunch of stuff added in this episode to try and make it look more poetic.

Half of the episode is spent pre-emptively justifying the decision to cut Luke and Misty out of Cornell's ultimate fate by abruptly trying to build up a subplot for Mariah to resent him over and then pretending like that had been there the whole time. And it's not like she didn't already have plenty of reason to be resentful of what his actions have done to her campaign.

That's the problem. Cornell's death is not a satisfying resolution to episodes 1-6, because it's too busy trying to be a satisfying resolution to only episode 7, this very episode, and nothing else. And both Luke and Misty's characters suffer for it, because all they come away being able to say is that they put in an effort.

Well, Misty did, anyway.

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AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
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#74155: Aug 30th 2017 at 10:10:34 PM

I feel like, as much as I loved Mahershala Ali's performance as Stokes, he's overrated compared to other TV villains. He's Kingpin if he got killed off in the middle of the season and was way less threatening or intimidating, with less resources and a much more lethal adversary who definitely should've taken him down a lot earlier. Cottonmouth would've been way less memorable or beloved if Ali wasn't the man playing him, because Ali is one hell of an actor. Shit, how many people noticed that Ali is like twenty years younger than Alfre Woodard?

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SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#74156: Aug 30th 2017 at 10:12:15 PM

Damn, she looked good.

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Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#74157: Aug 30th 2017 at 10:12:47 PM

[up][up][up]Still strongly disagree and really like the way Cottonmouth left the show (those flashbacks make perfect sense when you look back at the show and see the only time Stokes is really happy is when he's in Harlem's Paradise watching the musicians he booked), but hey, diff'rent strokes.

[up]Yeah, Alfre Woodard does not look like she's over sixty. Cottonmouth doesn't either, but Mahershala Ali also doesn't even look like he's in his forties.

edited 30th Aug '17 10:23:28 PM by Unsung

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#74158: Aug 30th 2017 at 10:14:49 PM

I see this so much. Someone puts a gun to your back and tells you to walk outside and you do it. They tell you to get on your knees and you do it. You might cry, you might pray, you might beg. But the one thing you don't do is fight. Even when you know goddamned well that they are going to kill you, you don't fight. You do what you're told and you let them murder you without so much as a token resistance.

Why does no one ever fight?

I've also seen a bunch of cases in movies and TV where someone points a gun at another characters and makes them march somewhere, kneel down, dig their own grave, or otherwise prepare for death . . . then doesn't actually shoot them. Turns out it was just a power move to make the other party feel scared and put them in their place. And Wikipedia has some examples of the same thing happening in real life. The person being held at gunpoint is probably hoping that this is one of those scenarios.

Alternatively, they want to fight back, but also want to wait for the right opportunity, for the person with the gun to make a mistake that gives them a good opportunity to turn the tables (ala Karen and Wesley), but the mistake never comes.

I feel like, as much as I loved Mahershala Ali's performance as Stokes, he's overrated compared to other TV villains. He's Kingpin if he got killed off in the middle of the season and was way less threatening or intimidating, with less resources and a much more lethal adversary who definitely should've taken him down a lot earlier. Cottonmouth would've been way less memorable or beloved if Ali wasn't the man playing him, because Ali is one hell of an actor. Shit, how many people noticed that Ali is like twenty years younger than Alfre Woodard?

Same. So much the same. When I first saw everyone praising Cottonmouth, I was like, "What?"

edited 30th Aug '17 10:16:11 PM by RavenWilder

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#74159: Aug 30th 2017 at 10:15:13 PM

I still need to finish Luke and watch Iron Fist and Defenders, but of the stuff I've seen thus far, Kilgrave's my favorite villain. He was legitimately threatening, entertaining to watch, thematically meaningful, and had the good sense to be taken down properly by the protagonist rather than disposing of himself or being disposed of by another villain or antihero.

Most villains have to settle for two, maybe three of those if they're lucky. Kilgrave hit all four.

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AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#74160: Aug 30th 2017 at 10:16:20 PM

I think one of my favorite little character moments with Cottonmouth is this one scene, and I forget the episode the scene is from, but it's just this little moment of him playing the Fender Rhodes piano by himself. There's just this little look on his face while he's playing a slow bluesy sounding piece on it, and it's almost a pitiable look on him. Like he's reflecting on his life some.

[up]

Oh I agree with that, nothing can top Kilgrave.

edited 30th Aug '17 10:17:02 PM by AdricDePsycho

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#74161: Aug 30th 2017 at 10:17:26 PM

That was this one. Episode 7.

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AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#74162: Aug 30th 2017 at 10:17:47 PM

Was it from that? I thought it was from earlier in the season, huh.

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#74163: Aug 30th 2017 at 10:18:47 PM

It's while he's waiting for Luke to show up at the club. Luke announces himself at the end of it, commenting that while he hates Cornell and everything he represents, there's no denying that the man has talent. "You could have made something of yourself."

A poignant statement given what the episode reveals about Cornell and Mariah's history.

edited 30th Aug '17 10:19:08 PM by TobiasDrake

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#74164: Aug 30th 2017 at 10:20:07 PM

@Raven Wilder Well, one bullet and you're done fighting— you're done, period, very likely. The impulse to 'wait for your moment, wait for someone to save you, wait for the person with the gun to change their mind' is pretty strong, I would imagine. Same reason deer freeze in the headlights, right? Fear's a powerful biological response.

Jessica Jones is the best thing to come out of Netflix's MCU for a lot of reasons, but yeah, Kilgrave was a great villain.

edited 30th Aug '17 10:24:57 PM by Unsung

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#74165: Aug 30th 2017 at 10:21:17 PM

I feel like I should rewatch that sometime, but I always liked that little scene. Ali's just playing the piano with little dialogue, and his body language conveys how he's feeling while playing it.

Fuck, I really need to watch Moonlight, come to think of it. I've heard he was really good in that one.

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#74166: Aug 30th 2017 at 10:24:55 PM

Deer freeze in headlights because the bright light blinds them. They can't see the vehicle coming at them. They have no idea what's going on, so they wait for their eyes to adjust before moving. However, the vehicle typically hits them or swerves out of the way before that opportunity arises.

It has nothing to do with fear. Fear instigates a Fight or Flight response. It's a motivator for taking some manner of action. Doing nothing and letting the danger hit you is not an instinctive response, it's an intellectual choice that has to be made in spite of fear.

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#74167: Aug 30th 2017 at 10:28:34 PM

Most people can't think straight when they've got a gun on them, and their fear paralyzes them through indecision— it's their intellect which keeps them from acting. Deer are wired to run from predators, loud noises, anything unfamiliar. You can say that it has nothing to do with fear, but being blinded by a bright light seems unlikely to calm a deer down.

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#74168: Aug 30th 2017 at 10:29:05 PM

Squabbling about technicalities aside, I agree that it does make sense for Pete not to fight back when it could easily get him killed, and instead prefer to wait for the right moment which, alas for him, did not come.

edited 30th Aug '17 10:30:47 PM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
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#74169: Aug 30th 2017 at 10:29:34 PM

He fights back, he'd still get shot, wouldn't he?

edited 30th Aug '17 10:38:06 PM by AdricDePsycho

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#74170: Aug 30th 2017 at 10:37:13 PM

Probably.

But if it's a choice between probably getting shot and definitely, absolutely, without question being shot, I'll take the probably. My life is the most valuable thing I own. If you want it, you better be ready to fight me for it.

The time to attack was when he was being led outside by a nephew who is reluctant to pull the trigger and standing immediately behind him, easily within range for a sudden move.

edited 30th Aug '17 10:38:24 PM by TobiasDrake

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#74171: Aug 30th 2017 at 10:38:22 PM

[up] Well, I suppose he figured that actively fighting back would result in the latter, following the logic mentioned above.

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#74172: Aug 30th 2017 at 10:40:42 PM

If he did, he's a fool. He spends that scene trying to convince Cornell not to shoot him as if Cornell has any say in the matter at all. Best case scenario, his ploy wins and Cornell refuses to do it, so Mama Mabel takes the gun from him and does it herself. Once he's actually out there in the yard a safe 10-15 feet away from the gun, there is no longer any scenario in which walking away with his life is an option. He needed to act before that.

edited 30th Aug '17 10:40:58 PM by TobiasDrake

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#74173: Aug 30th 2017 at 10:41:55 PM

[up][up][up]Right, but intellectually, if someone has a gun on you, finger on the trigger, if you spin around and try to grab it or grab their arm or dive into cover, if they're faster, you haven't saved your own life, you've gotten yourself killed that much faster.

Pete does not strike me as a guy with a particularly strong spine, is the thing. I don't think he would've had the dexterity to whip around and grab the gun without a pretty big risk of it going off, even accidentally, so he was probably more certain about his own fear and weak nerve than he was about Cornell's reluctance to shoot him. Lots of people do things they don't want to do, or don't mean to do, when guns and people like Mama Mabel are involved.

[up]He needed to, but he didn't, because he was terrified. People aren't always rational in the best of times, when they're not inches away from death, let alone when they're about to get put in the dirt in their own back yard.

edited 30th Aug '17 10:46:12 PM by Unsung

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#74174: Aug 30th 2017 at 10:43:39 PM

Nothing is ever absolutely, definitely without question.

You might be able to talk the gun wielder out of shooting you. Or they might have never meant to shoot you and are just doing a mock execution. Or they might become distracted by something long enough for you to make a move. Or someone else might come by who interrupts the proceedings.

There are a lot of possibilities for how that sort of situation can play out, while if you just charge headlong at someone pointing a loaded gun at you, you've tossed those possibilities aside for the near certainty that you'll be taking a bullet to the chest. Again, don't you think Karen's pretty glad that she didn't try attacking Wesley right away when he first pointed a gun at her?

In Pete's specific case, he may have been hoping, not just to convince Cornell not to shoot him, but to get him to turn the gun on Mama Mabel instead.

edited 30th Aug '17 10:45:09 PM by RavenWilder

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#74175: Aug 30th 2017 at 10:48:09 PM

It's not so much about grabbing the gun as it is about getting it away from you. Whose hand is physically on it is not nearly as important as where the barrel's pointed. You can worry about getting control of the gun once it is no longer an immediate threat to you, and the doorway can serve to bottleneck Mama Mabel from coming to Cornell's aid for at least a few seconds.

Trying to get control of the gun without the vital step of it not being pointed at you can actually backfire horrifically, because Cornell is just as likely to pull the trigger out of surprise or pain as he is out of an intentional effort to fight back.

  1. No longer be directly in front of the barrel.
  2. Get control of the gun from the wimpy piano player who almost certainly could not take an experienced criminal in a fight.
  3. Shoot Mama Mabel, preferably before she has a chance to actually enter the fight because unlike Cornell, she is dangerous.
  4. Get the hell out of dodge.

It's not a perfect plan by any means and is incredibly dangerous, but not as dangerous as doing nothing and letting them murder you.

edited 30th Aug '17 10:49:04 PM by TobiasDrake

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