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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#74076: Aug 27th 2017 at 11:00:35 PM

I think that is the first time I see someone calling the Ghost Rider version in Ao S "lacklustre". Most people really want him to get his own Spin-off series, preferable Midnight Sons.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#74077: Aug 27th 2017 at 11:13:22 PM

DareDevil totally killed someone.

He got better, but it was a thing that happened.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#74078: Aug 27th 2017 at 11:13:40 PM

He pretended that he didn't, though.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#74079: Aug 27th 2017 at 11:15:26 PM

Such a missed opportunity, that.

I really liked the idea that Murdock was so bloodied to hell at that point that he doesn't actually remember what happened that night. It would have been a great setup for Nobu, upon his return, to reveal the bitter truth of what Murdock did and send him spiraling into a crisis of faith.

But that didn't happen. Instead, we got ninja fights. Lots and lots of ninja fights.

I don't think I have much to fear from ninja fights in Luke Cage, but I'm crossing my fingers that Iron Fist and Defenders have more to offer than a half-dozen episodes dedicated to ninja fight after ninja fight after ninja fight.

edited 27th Aug '17 11:17:04 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#74080: Aug 27th 2017 at 11:27:18 PM

NVM

edited 27th Aug '17 11:27:35 PM by KnownUnknown

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#74081: Aug 27th 2017 at 11:59:20 PM

You know, I liked Diamondback, and I don't really understand why others didn't, at least not to the extent they do. He wasn't great, he wasn't even better than Cottonmouth, Mariah, or Shades, but being the least compelling major villain in a line-up that good shouldn't be as big of a blemish as some make it out to be.

I liked his backstory with Luke (after it was actually revealed that they had a backstory together, which is a separate issue...), I liked him constantly quoting the Bible, I liked how he was a weapons dealer with his ace in the hole being a prototype Iron Man armor, because that makes sense as something a weapons dealer would have access to in this world. It looked a little goofy, but not any more so than Iron Man or Captain America.

I'm not saying he was great, he wasn't even one of the best Netflix villains, but he certainly wasn't one of the worst, like some people make him out to be.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#74082: Aug 28th 2017 at 12:36:36 AM

[up]Well, yeah, out of the Big Bads of the Netflix series, he's certainly one of the worst. It's not that long a list, and the top positions are crowded out by Kingpin, Kilgrave, Cottonmouth, Mariah, Madame Gao and Harold Meachum. He's treated better than, say, Nobu, but that's not exactly tough competition. Like the rest of the Hand, Nobu's biggest problem is that he just doesn't get to be onscreen very much in what should be his time to shine. Diamondback's problem is that what he's doing is actually pretty good, but it feels completely out of sync with the tone for the rest of Luke Cage. He's a comic book villain, the villain from a Michael Bay movie circa 1999. And as such, it just feels like he derailed what had been the more interesting buildup between Luke, Cottonmouth, and then Mariah. They needed some kind of physical heavy for the second half of Luke Cage, I'm fine with that, but it's the way Diamondback was played that people found disappointing.

I'm in the weird in-between position of really liking the street fight that gets the crowds out and chanting at the end of the season, but not quite liking how they got to that point. I actually like what Erik LaRay Harvey is doing theatrically, but those kind of theatrics just don't seem like the right fit for this show.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#74083: Aug 28th 2017 at 12:48:29 AM

I do agree that he felt a little out of place, but than again, this is the same season that brought us Luke Cage wearing the closest approximation to his original comic book costume you can get. I agree on the ending being great, even if the path to it was a tad rocky. Also, and I'm saying this as someone who really enjoyed Iron Fist, I think Diamondback is at least comparable to Harold Meachum.

edited 28th Aug '17 12:50:34 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

MedusaStone Since: Jan, 2015
#74084: Aug 28th 2017 at 1:03:35 AM

Okay, this is driving me crazy. Every time someone mentions Daredevil's no-kill code, someone else pipes up and says "but he totally killed Nobu, so he's a lying liar!". From what I understand, they were fighting, and at some point Nobu gets doused in something combustible. Matt decides to even the playing field by taking out the lights. So he throws his stick at the light and breaks it, but that makes sparks, some of which land on Nobu and ignite him. He burns to death.

Now, I understood "no kill" to mean "no deliberate deaths". So unless somebody has proof that Matt deliberately set Nobu on fire to kill him, it was an accident. Not good, but hardly the cold-blooded murder some people seem to be trying to pass it off as.

I mean, am I wrong? Is there a scene where he goes "fuck this, I'm killing this guy" and it's just nobody ever mentions it because they assume everybody knows already?

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#74085: Aug 28th 2017 at 1:26:21 AM

[up] The issue in the first season is more that after all the talk about not killing and Matt in general feeling guilty about pretty much everything, he doesn't spend one second feeling guilty about Nobu, independent from the question if it was deliberate of not. And in season 2 he simply throws him off the roof and apparently he has now no problems to kill Hand members. None of this ever gets addressed.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#74086: Aug 28th 2017 at 1:39:05 AM

He'd already dropped a fire extinguisher on that one Russian from the second episode. Self defense probably factors into it, and protection of others. It's season 2 that muddies the waters, in part because Matt's not willing to kill and needs to defend his reasons for why not to Castle, and then Elektra murders that kid in front of him. He's emotionally fragile and not thinking straight.

The way his refusal to kill is positioned in Season 1 is less that he must not, cannot ever kill, but rather that Matt *wants* to kill Fisk, but doesn't trust his own motives. Is it really about justice, or is it about having someone to fight, an outlet for that inner rage and bloodlust? There's a reason the Punisher and Elektra get so much attention in Season 2, because without his obsessive rumination over morality, it would be all too easy for Matt to kill, and keep killing, until it no longer mattered and he felt nothing at all. The slippery slope isn't the same for everyone, but as Frank, Elektra, and Fisk all point out, for all that he tries to pretend otherwise, Matt really isn't all that different from them. Which is why he clings so hard to that one last distinction, the last bit of light he sees in himself.

There's a difference between killing, even killing in self-defense, and murder. Sometimes that's a very fine line, but crucial for someone like Matt.

edited 28th Aug '17 1:49:21 AM by Unsung

Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#74087: Aug 28th 2017 at 1:47:05 AM

I liked Diamondback just fine and he was a very entertaining villain, but my problem with him are: one, the Diamondback alluded to by other characters at the first half of the season and the Diamondback we actually see seems like two completely different characters. And two, the story keeps bending itself backward regardless of logic to make him feel like a threatening villain.

edited 28th Aug '17 1:52:11 AM by Nightwire

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#74088: Aug 28th 2017 at 2:13:37 AM

[up][up] See, I get the idea behind it, but the execution is flawed and can create the expression that Matt doesn't care much if his victims happen to be filthy foreigners.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#74089: Aug 28th 2017 at 5:01:40 AM

Tobias isn't wrong here. Luge Cage: the show does rely on Cottonmouth sticking around just to introduce the Judas Bullets, otherwise he (and no one else for the matter) doesn't have the ability to threaten Luke Cage: the character. This reduces him to a Team Rocket level threat, but his actor has the chops and charisma to gain an audience regardless.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#74090: Aug 28th 2017 at 5:32:31 AM

True. I mean, this isn't exactly an issue limited to Luke Cage. Virtually every MCU villain lacks the means to be truly threatening to the hero.

edited 28th Aug '17 5:38:53 AM by windleopard

Luigisan98 A wandering user from Venezuelan Muscat Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
A wandering user
#74091: Aug 28th 2017 at 5:39:12 AM

[up] Except for the likes of Wilson Fisk, Loki, The Vulture, Ego and probably Thanos, you have a point.

The only good fanboy, is a redeemed fanboy.
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#74092: Aug 28th 2017 at 5:50:14 AM

Which is why I said "virtually every MCU villain" also we still have yet to see Thanos in action and given this franchise's track record with villains, im not very hopeful

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#74093: Aug 28th 2017 at 5:51:03 AM

He doesn't need to be able to threaten Luke himself, the only thing he needs to do is threaten Harlem. Problem is that the show itself forgets this angle. Hell, even Connie doesn't turn up again...her being rescued is shown pretty much as Luke fulfilling his promise to protect her, except he didn't. Everything she and her husband have worked for is gone. So much for Luke's protection. And this could be an ongoing theme in the show, but after pointing out that Harlem isn't bulletproof, the whole issue never comes up again. The show chickens out by delivering a villain who can be defeated with Luke's fist instead of showing that most problems Harlem has aren't particularly punchable.

[up][up] Don't forget Ronan. Whatever one thinks about him, he is a seemingly undefeatable threat. The only reason why the Got G survive their first encounter with him is because they don't read as dangerous enough for him to ensure that they actually are defeated for good. And then there is Dormamu, who is thankfully a honourable villain who keeps his word, or the earth would be gone by now.

edited 28th Aug '17 5:53:56 AM by Swanpride

Luigisan98 A wandering user from Venezuelan Muscat Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
A wandering user
#74094: Aug 28th 2017 at 5:51:51 AM

[up][up] But Ego and Vulture have been well received so far, meaning that they're going to the right direction so far.

edited 28th Aug '17 6:00:53 AM by Luigisan98

The only good fanboy, is a redeemed fanboy.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#74095: Aug 28th 2017 at 5:56:31 AM

[up] It is fairly noticeable that there are more villains who are allowed to survive in recent movies...there have been four movies so far in phase 3 and with the exception of Ego, in all of them the villain survived. And even Got G 2 ends with another villain on the loose.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#74096: Aug 28th 2017 at 7:26:08 AM

With regards to deflecting Nobu's attack: that's the thing. While it was a deflection of an attack, it was a lethal deflection. Matt was just reacting, not deliberately planning, but he reacted with a killing blow. This is a consequence of violence, and something that people who plan to use violence to achieve an agenda always need to be cognizantly aware of.

Matt employed violence against Fisk and his men and, in the process, he killed a man. It's as much a kill as if someone pulled a shotgun on him, he kicked the shotgun, and it launched the barrel up into the man's chin before discharging. So, with this in mind, you might think Matt would spend some time thinking about the reality of what he's doing, right? Maybe come to a more nuanced perspective on the matter? Or, at the very least, feel guilty for crossing that line?

Nope. In the very next episode, he gets self-righteous with Foggy, declaring "I don't kill people!" in response to Foggy chewing him out over his vigilantism. Whenever the topic comes up, he remains on that high horse and goes on tirades about how killing is bad and only bad people kill and he would never in a million years ever kill someone.

His refusal to so much as acknowledge that in the course of pursuing his violent vigilantism, he lit a man on fire who proceeded to burn to death, makes him come off as hypocritical. This only weakens what is already a very shaky moral platform, as the show consistently refuses to give Murdock any net positive results from his pacifist stance.

edited 28th Aug '17 7:27:21 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#74097: Aug 28th 2017 at 8:04:48 AM

Did Matt even need to have a no kill rule? Damn near every MCU protagonist has flipped the bird at this idiocy. The only character I would say it is justifiable to have such a rule is Peter Parker, who's still a kid.

Or to paraphrase David Brothers, formerly of 4thletter.com fame, if you're going to wear Big Boy pants and write tv shows with Big Boy stakes maybe you should be willing to make some Big Boy Decisions and not completely neuter your heroes at the end of the story. "I won! By sticking to outdated principles, while murderous antiheroes took care of all my problems as innocent people died around me so I could maintain my arbitrary high horse. And I totally did not kill that one guy I totally killed!"

edited 28th Aug '17 8:11:43 AM by windleopard

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#74098: Aug 28th 2017 at 8:17:53 AM

[up] All the Defenders plus Spider-man should have one. It is okay for The Avengers to kill because they are soldiers who are usually operating in battle-situations (though they try to avoid it, too), it is not okay for some vigilante to be Judge, jury and executioner. This is exactly why The Punisher and The Ghost-Riders are Anti-heroes instead of straight up heroes (though Ghost Rider at least has the excuse that he knows for sure if the person in front of him is guilty or not).

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#74099: Aug 28th 2017 at 8:26:22 AM

Last i checked, the Avengers were vigilantes as well.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#74100: Aug 28th 2017 at 8:34:11 AM

Matt's both Catholic and a lawyer. If anyone would have some reason to value the sanctity of life, it's him.

While even the Catholic Church isn't as stringent with "Thou Shall Not Kill" as Matt is (the Church tends to take the view killing is justifiable if it is in self-defense or, most importantly, to protect others ), it wouldn't suit his character at all for him to become as liberal about killing people as Tony and Steve are.

Likewise for Pete, who's a 15 year old kid.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."

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