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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#73601: Aug 1st 2017 at 7:14:55 PM

I didn't say anything about post-CW. I said that CW ignored his character growth from Ant-Man. That whole "I don't want to be a criminal anymore, and be there more for my daughter," yeah well congratulations Scott, you screwed both of those up at the same time.

And if they wanted to do that, The Russo's could have given him a better motivation than "Captain America, awesome," which is an 8 year old's motivation. Honestly I rolled my eyes in CW when that happened. It's also one of the reasons why I wanted someone to smack him and Clint when they were bad-mouthing Tony later on (hypocritical jerks).

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#73602: Aug 1st 2017 at 7:24:44 PM

" In the aftermath of “Captain America: Civil War,” Scott Lang (Rudd) grapples with the consequences of his choices as both a Super Hero and a father"

Yeah, the sway this is set look like Scott didnt really think AT ALL to join Cap team, ,inda like htis

"Men, Capitan is awsome.......wait, who is that guy who look like spiderman....ha take that Stark! Hank would be proud.....way, why im here in the raft?"

it dosent help that by the end of CW his now....a criminal for a trying to do the right thing, meanig he goes back to square one, well......damn.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#73603: Aug 1st 2017 at 7:35:59 PM

Its his fatal flaw.

He's all too willing to do crimes for good reasons.

You may say he should have character developed but his character development in Ant-Man was once again doing a crime for good reasons. He in essence doubled down.

The only difference is that the second time he was rewarded for it. And the first and third times he was not. So if he does it again he should be set.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#73604: Aug 1st 2017 at 7:39:34 PM

[up]Yeah, it seen he decide to commit a crime for good reason BUT HARDER!

Also I dont think Scott is going to have easy to see her daughter, in part because he is a wanted criminal(I mean, look Bucky and how he lived in CW) and in part because that would kind undermine Cap choices, it would be to weird if Scott got easy after the clusterfuck of airport show.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#73605: Aug 1st 2017 at 7:44:07 PM

My math is sound. He just needs to crime an even amount of times.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#73606: Aug 1st 2017 at 8:01:11 PM

Scott's primary motivation is to do good for the sake of being someone his daughter can look up to - not specifically to stop committing crimes. Ant-Man establishes that even if he'd rather do something else, if being that man means sometimes doing criminal acts for what appear to be entirely altruistic and necessary reasons, he's down for it. Getting caught at most points during the heist would have gotten him thrown back in jail just the same, but he was willing to risk it because that's what he felt he needed to do to redeem himself.

Him joining up with Cap in CW makes sense in regards to that, because we know what his stake was coming in: he gets to work with Captain America, he gets to stop a bunch of evil superpowered assassins, and he gets to have a hand in saving the world - even if it is from outside the law. From his point of view, it's not all that different what he did for Hank, and that turned out fine - possibly even more appealing, because cool as he is Hank isn't Captain Freaking America.

edited 1st Aug '17 8:43:04 PM by KnownUnknown

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#73607: Aug 1st 2017 at 8:08:33 PM

Also Ant-Man is a lovable screwup, and in order for that to continue being true he can only learn so much from any given mistake.

If one mistake was all it took for people to fix themselves and get their lives back on track, we've be living in a much different world.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#73609: Aug 2nd 2017 at 10:52:10 AM

[up][up][up] His goal in Ant-Man seemed much more concrete than that: he just wanted to be able to spend time with his daughter again, something that, even after getting out of prison, he couldn't do until he paid off his back child support, hence his agreeing to a heist. By the end of the movie, he'd gotten all that sorted out and could be a part of his daughter's life, so jeopardizing that all over again does seem out-of-character, yeah. Especially since Ant-Man was the last film of Phase 2 and Civil War was the first film of Phase 3, so it seems like Scott didn't just ruin everything he worked for in his solo film, but he did so almost immediately.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#73610: Aug 2nd 2017 at 11:44:26 AM

Isn't the end of Ant-Man literally him getting back together with his criminal gang for another heist?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#73611: Aug 2nd 2017 at 11:51:48 AM

No, he was just hanging out with Luis to hang out with Luis and Luis told a story about how Falcon was looking for him.

My various fanfics.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#73612: Aug 2nd 2017 at 11:55:11 AM

Oh, huh. Thought he said something about planning another heist.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#73613: Aug 2nd 2017 at 12:05:25 PM

I recall him responding to a call from Luis saying that he had to go to work. And then he met with Luis and Luis told him one of his hilarious meandering stories which led up to the point that Falcon was looking for Scott.

He at least indicated at the end of Ant-Man that he was open to the idea.

edited 2nd Aug '17 12:09:37 PM by Bocaj

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#73614: Aug 2nd 2017 at 4:52:16 PM

I don't think Scott ever really processed that what he was doing in Civil War was a crime. He's not an Avenger so he was never in on the Accords debates. Sam just brought him in while Steve was recruiting muscle. By his own admission, he had no idea what was going on other than "something about psycho assassins".

Steve tells him, "We're outside the law on this one so if you come with us, you're a wanted man," but by that point, he's looking Captain Motherf*cking America straight in the eyes. Are you going to say no to a personal invitation to serve as an Avenger by Captain America?

This is part of the same issue that the comics Civil War had with the Anti-Regs: it's not really clear how many people were on Cap's side because they believed his cause was just and how many people were there because he's Captain America so, naturally, they just assumed that whatever he did was the right thing. It's Captain America!

The movie at least played it fair by having that on both sides. Spider-Man's entire motivation was, "Dude, I don't know what this is about, but Iron Man says you're wrong. So."

edited 2nd Aug '17 4:55:47 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#73615: Aug 2nd 2017 at 6:20:47 PM

I always thought it was funny that, if told about the entire situation, Peter would probably have sides with Cap, or at least wouldn't have seen it as so cut and dry. His whole motive rant resonates pretty hard with Cap's stance.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#73616: Aug 2nd 2017 at 6:43:02 PM

Not really. Like, I hear that a lot, but this is what he says:

When you can do the things that I can, but you don't... and then the bad things happen, they happen because of you."

Parker's motive rant opposes lethargic inaction; choosing to stand aside and never use your powers for good because you just don't want to. But nobody on either side of the fence is advocating that the Avengers should disband and never use their abilities again.

Both Stark and Rogers agree that the Avengers are a necessary force for humanity's defense. Where they disagree is on the structure of the chain of command.

edited 2nd Aug '17 6:43:44 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#73617: Aug 2nd 2017 at 6:56:04 PM

Rogers assumes that if he Avengers fall under government control, they will be forced to take a lethargic stance at the whims of the people holding their leash. That's where his "if I see a situation pointed South, I can't just ignore it" line (the line I assume makes people feel that way) comes from, and it's his basic reason for most of his actions in the film - he's going out of his way to handle a situation he feels is his responsibility, eschewing the rules and even his other relationships to keep things from going south on his watch.

Tony didn't bring Peter in to sound off on the Accords, and I'm not talking about whether he would think the Avengers would need to continue or not, but he did bring him in to be a simple answer to a complex situations, and it's one Peter would have likely been sympathetic too had he been allowed to hear the whole story given how much it resonates with his own life and personal philosophy.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#73618: Aug 2nd 2017 at 6:57:10 PM

All I'm saying is, it's a fairly simple philosophy next to a complex situation.

Like, on its face, "If you have the power to do a thing and you don't do it then you are bad," could also be used to defend building Ultron.

Or invading Jotunheim.

edited 2nd Aug '17 6:58:06 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#73619: Aug 2nd 2017 at 7:03:40 PM

Yeah, that's Spider-Man for you. Without knowing the end result, he might well have supported that take on "with great power" and gotten behind Tony's reasons for building Ultron - a similar rationale led him to initially join the Pro-Regs in the comics iirc.

He'd never support going to war, though.

edited 2nd Aug '17 7:09:01 PM by KnownUnknown

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#73620: Aug 2nd 2017 at 7:06:23 PM

They do have weapons of mass refrigeration

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#73621: Aug 2nd 2017 at 7:07:02 PM

We need to invade Jotenheim. It's the only way we can defeat Hydro-Man.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#73622: Aug 2nd 2017 at 7:12:18 PM

Part of the thing is that Iron Man and Captain America are actually operating on completely different levels, or at least approaching problems from different angles. The top-down approach versus ground-level. Tony Stark building Ultron is making a pretty huge decision on behalf of the world. Cap intervening in Lagos to stop a chemical weapon from being stolen is more of an individual decision, because as far as we can tell, no one else knew or was in a position to act.

Some degree of regulation is needed, the same as for guns or, y'know, cars. But there's no one-size-fits-all solution for people with powers, not when the range of those powers is so vast.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#73623: Aug 2nd 2017 at 7:35:26 PM

"No one else knows" isn't really a great justification, because there is an incredibly simple means by which it can be resolved.

We aren't exactly talking about the Yeerk Empire or something.

edited 2nd Aug '17 7:36:09 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#73624: Aug 2nd 2017 at 7:37:36 PM

Not if time is a factor, as it seems to have been here.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#73625: Aug 2nd 2017 at 7:44:09 PM

If you have time to sneak a rogue paramilitary unit halfway across the planet without being detected and set up a stakeout, you have time to place a phone call.

It's not like Steve was just walking down the street one day and then suddenly he saw an elaborate Hydra operation taking place.

edited 2nd Aug '17 7:49:52 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.

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