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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#72701: Jul 12th 2017 at 11:22:48 PM

Yeah, the whole "The US military can kill anything" mindset is really not suitable for the MCU, which is an inherently unrealistic universe. Trying to prove that the real-world military can kill a completely fictional character or stop a completely fictional alien invasion is the definition of pointless.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#72702: Jul 12th 2017 at 11:24:38 PM

You don't really need to take it so personally. Some people get their entertainment out of measuring these things.

edited 12th Jul '17 11:37:54 PM by Unsung

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#72703: Jul 12th 2017 at 11:25:11 PM

Yes, but it illustrates the level of force and energy required to damage his body.
No, it doesn't, since his body changes.

My "argument" is simply "what happened in the film happened in the film, and what happened in the film is that a concrete block thrown at non-ridiculous speeds gave the Hulk brain damage."
It knocked him unconscious, it didn't give him brain damage.

Your argument seems to be "Hulk is immortal because I said so", in which case [Citation Needed]. I'm getting a bit annoyed by your constant reliance on your own fan fiction rather than what's shown on-screen.
My evidence is what's on screen, specifically the fact that he fell out of an airplane and didn't die. He fought the Abomination, had trouble, but then beat him. And then punched a giant dragon to death the next time. I think it's super clear that his strength and toughness varies according to his mood.

No, it makes her a human with superpowers.
Humans don't have superpowers.

Some people take their entertainment by measuring these things.
Except that it drains the joy out of the conversation. Continually saying "Just missile attack the character until he dies!" stops the conversation dead.

edited 12th Jul '17 11:27:27 PM by alliterator

MonsieurThenardier Searching from Murika Since: Nov, 2016 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
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#72704: Jul 12th 2017 at 11:27:20 PM

The MCU is a piece of fiction that chose to create a fictional character who is demonstrably vulnerable to forces reproducible or surpassable by modern ordnance, in the same way that Star Wars is a fictional universe where the heroes are humans who can be killed by things that kill real humans. The reason for this is to establish the stakes and thus allow the narrative to unfold. In the same way that Hulk kicking a guy through a building establishes his strength, these scenes establish his limits; because we, in reality, are expected to recognize these feats and what they mean. To have a coherent piece of fiction, the rules of the universe need to be established, and the MCU is very much Like Reality Unless Otherwise Noted.

So no, I'm not simply going to submit to you and say we can never try to talk about any piece of fiction in a coherent or logical manner or apply any sort of realism, especially when the fiction itself tries to base its premise (in this case, Civil War) on Reality Ensues.

No, it doesn't, since his body changes.
No it doesn't.
It knocked him unconscious, it didn't give him brain damage.
Genuine question: do you actually know what being "knocked out" entails?
My evidence is what's on screen, specifically the fact that he fell out of an airplane and didn't die.
You're unintentionally aiding my argument. Falling out of a plane and not dying is not impressive. The fact that this knocked him out is what's notable; since the energy applied to his body upon hitting the ground at terminal velocity is easily exceeded by modern ordnance.
He fought the Abomination, had trouble, but then beat him. And then punched a giant dragon to death the next time. I think it's super clear that his strength and toughness varies according to his mood.
Again, I don't know what you think you're trying to prove. Punching the Leviathan to death would only require his punch have the force of a semi-truck impact. And no, his strength and toughness varying according to mood is just more fan fiction on your part.
Humans don't have superpowers.
You still haven't answered the question of why this would change a dang thing legally. Her legal responsibility, how does this change by the addition of telekinesis?

edited 12th Jul '17 11:32:46 PM by MonsieurThenardier

"It is very easy to be kind; the difficulty lies in being just."
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#72705: Jul 12th 2017 at 11:28:21 PM

I don't see how Wanda doesn't qualify as human from a legal standpoint. There's no laws in any legal system that I know of that revoke a person's status as homo sapiens, let alone as a consequence of developing unusual traits. Especially since she wasn't born with her powers as far as we know.

Vision is the only real "legal uncharted territory" as far as that goes.

edited 12th Jul '17 11:29:35 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#72706: Jul 12th 2017 at 11:28:38 PM

Yeah, fuck this. I'm out until this conversation dies or until certain people get banned.

My various fanfics.
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#72708: Jul 12th 2017 at 11:31:35 PM

Steve tried to get into the military with false information, endangered a civilian in a unsanctioned rescue mission during war time, released the info of numerous innocent SHIELD agents leaving them and those close to them vulnerable to every unfriendly out there, allowed a terrorist who'd violated his team to join them, assaulted police officers doing their job and withheld information about the murder of a teammate's parents from said teammates.

The man's moral compass is so fucked up, I'm amazed he can tell up from down.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#72709: Jul 12th 2017 at 11:32:14 PM

A few points:

1) Any piece of real world metal would not be able to withstand the sort of punishment Tony puts his regular armor through, let alone his Hulkbuster suit, so I don't think you can really guage how hard its hits are without knowing how hard the suit itself is.

2) I'm pretty sure the Hulk is supposed to have some sort of healing factor, so being able to hurt him does not equal being able to kill him.

3) More than any other MCU character, the Hulk runs on Strong as They Need to Be. In The Avengers, he gets knocked out by a terminal velocity fall, but later gets bombared by dozens of Chitauri energy blasts (which were previously shown to have bazooka-like destructive force) and, while seemingly hurt by them, displays no visible damage and is perfectly capable of fighting through it.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#72710: Jul 12th 2017 at 11:32:49 PM

Didn't we agree like two weeks ago to take any Civil War related discussion into the Civil War thread?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#72711: Jul 12th 2017 at 11:33:47 PM

The MCU is a piece of fiction that chose to create a fictional character who is demonstrably vulnerable to forces reproducible or surpassable by modern ordnance
Except sometimes he's vulnerable and other times he isn't. In Incredible Hulk, he jumped out of an airplane and hit the ground as the Hulk and was up and running within seconds. In The Avengers, he fell out of an airplane as the Hulk, but was knocked unconscious and woke up as Bruce Banner. In Incredible Hulk, he has trouble fighting against the Abomination, but in The Avengers, he kills a Leviathan with one punch. His strength and toughness fluctuates depending on the situation.

I don't see how Wanda doesn't qualify as human from a legal standpoint.
Legally, what is a human?

edited 12th Jul '17 11:33:56 PM by alliterator

MonsieurThenardier Searching from Murika Since: Nov, 2016 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
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#72712: Jul 12th 2017 at 11:34:43 PM

1) Any piece of real world metal would not be able to withstand the sort of punishment Tony puts his regular armor through, let alone his Hulkbuster suit, so I don't think you can really guage how hard its hits are without knowing how hard the suit itself is.
He explicitly says his suit is made of titanium, so no. This is also reasserted in that Iron Man 3 iPhone app containing the hall of armors, as well as the script of both Iron Man and the Avengers. The iPhone app even gives a few exact percentages.wink The Mark III was 95.5% titanium, 4.5% gold.
2) I'm pretty sure the Hulk is supposed to have some sort of healing factor, so being able to hurt him does not equal being able to kill him.
He doesn't, not in a combat-relevant time frame anyway. He still has his wounds from the college campus fight later that night.
3) More than any other MCU character, the Hulk runs on Strong as They Need to Be. In The Avengers, he gets knocked out by a terminal velocity fall, but later gets bombared by dozens of Chitauri energy blasts (which were previously shown to have bazooka-like destructive force) and, while seemingly hurt by them, displays no visible damage and is perfectly capable of fighting through it.
More evidence in my favor. The combined bombardment of those weak weapons didn't even destroy the roof he was standing on, and individually they clearly affected him less than 40mm grenades in his own movie, yet that firepower was still enough to wound and incapacitate the Hulk. Again, we can do much better than that. There's not much inconsistent about this scene.
Except sometimes he's vulnerable and other times he isn't. In Incredible Hulk, he jumped out of an airplane and hit the ground as the Hulk and was up and running within seconds. In The Avengers, he fell out of an airplane as the Hulk, but was knocked unconscious and woke up as Bruce Banner. In Incredible Hulk, he has trouble fighting against the Abomination, but in The Avengers, he kills a Leviathan with one punch. His strength and toughness fluctuates depending on the situation.
Except there's no actual fluctuation in these scenes. He jumped a few hundred feet out of a helicopter vs jumping 30,000 feet in the Avengers, and him being able to smash a Leviathan's skull is not actually inconsistent with him being weaker than Abomination. He is consistently, always vulnerable to forces that can be exceeded by real life ordnance. This actually becomes a plot point twice: when he's KO'd by the fall, and when Stark beats him by smashing his face in with a ~250-500 kg piece of titanium over and over. If he wasn't vulnerable to these forces, the scenes in question cease to become valid and the movies themselves must have unfolded in a wildly different manner, since Hulk wouldn't have been knocked out in either scene.

edited 12th Jul '17 11:46:25 PM by MonsieurThenardier

"It is very easy to be kind; the difficulty lies in being just."
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#72713: Jul 12th 2017 at 11:35:15 PM

I hate everything about this.

My various fanfics.
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#72714: Jul 12th 2017 at 11:35:42 PM

I was really tempted to just link the Civil War thread as soon as warrior93 brought up the Accords, but then people started talking about AOS and things seemed relatively tame at first.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#72715: Jul 12th 2017 at 11:36:27 PM

Then I'll link it here: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=14617490830A31767500&page=127

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#72716: Jul 12th 2017 at 11:37:44 PM

He jumped a few hundred feet out of a helicopter vs jumping 30,000 feet in the Avengers, and him being able to smash a Leviathan's skull is not actually inconsistent with him being weaker than Abomination.
It is at this point that I think we should all just ignore you, because you are super duper insistent that you are always right, no matter the evidence presented against you. That is not a good thing.

edited 12th Jul '17 11:38:08 PM by alliterator

MonsieurThenardier Searching from Murika Since: Nov, 2016 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
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#72717: Jul 12th 2017 at 11:38:45 PM

You say, while presenting no evidence.

[Go to the Civil War thread if you have some]

If you want to get super nitpicky, I've actually seen some people measure that Leviathan punch scene based on the creature's momentum. The force of his punch is about on par with a medium semi-truck crash, and a few hundred times greater than that of a heavyweight boxer's punch.

edited 12th Jul '17 11:40:26 PM by MonsieurThenardier

"It is very easy to be kind; the difficulty lies in being just."
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#72718: Jul 12th 2017 at 11:40:27 PM

If you want to get super nitpicky, I've actually seen some people measure that Leviathan punch scene.
...sigh. Seriously, we've been over this.

So, hey, how about that Squirrel Girl? She's awesome, I can't wait for the show. Also, Squirrel Girl can kick everyone's asses, no problem.

edited 12th Jul '17 11:43:00 PM by alliterator

MonsieurThenardier Searching from Murika Since: Nov, 2016 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
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#72719: Jul 12th 2017 at 11:44:40 PM

You made the assertion that this scene proved his strength drastically varied and/or that he was stronger than modern ordnance could handle. What do you base that assertion if you're not only going to not attempt to measure or quantify the scene in any way, but get angry when someone actually does? You're debunking your own premise.

"It is very easy to be kind; the difficulty lies in being just."
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#72720: Jul 12th 2017 at 11:50:23 PM

You made the assertion that this scene proved his strength drastically varied and/or that he was stronger than modern ordnance could handle.
I compared two scenes in two movies. You are trying to compare a movie with reality, which doesn't work when the movie is using something completely fictional. It's like trying to measure the Force in Star Wars. Hell, no, it's exactly like that, because the Force also fluctuates. Sometimes you can lift an entire X-Wing, sometimes you can't, and sometimes you can stop an energy blast in its tracks. Trying to quantify the Force would be useless then because there is no way to get an accurate measurement of it.

The Abomination is much, much smaller than a Leviathan. Therefore, according to science, the Leviathan is much more massive and, therefore, has more weight to it (according to gravity, etc). Much more, because they are entirely different sizes. The Hulk has trouble fighting against the Abomination — he hits him several times, but the Abomination doesn't fall down. However, one punch from the Hulk and the Leviathan is not only down, but dead. Therefore, two different strength levels. QED, whatever, there you go, you're wrong, move on.

Squirrel Girl could kick the Hulk's ass, by the way.

edited 12th Jul '17 11:52:13 PM by alliterator

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#72721: Jul 12th 2017 at 11:55:21 PM

Squirrel Girl could kick anyone's ass if she wanted to.

My various fanfics.
MonsieurThenardier Searching from Murika Since: Nov, 2016 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
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#72722: Jul 12th 2017 at 11:57:22 PM

I compared two scenes in two movies. You are trying to compare a movie with reality, which doesn't work when the movie is using something completely fictional.
The movie is Like Reality Unless Otherwise Noted, so it is perfectly acceptable to bring up instances from these movies where real world forces injure the Hulk, particularly to counter an assertion made by you that no modern ordnance could kill the Hulk. Which, by the way, you still have not offered any evidence for, in contrast to myself.
The Abomination is much, much smaller than a Leviathan. Therefore, according to science, the Leviathan is much more massive and, therefore, has more weight to it (according to gravity, etc). Much more, because they are entirely different sizes. The Hulk has trouble fighting against the Abomination — he hits him several times, but the Abomination doesn't fall down. However, one punch from the Hulk and the Leviathan is not only down, but dead. Therefore, two different strength levels. QED, whatever, there you go, you're wrong, move on.
Except, no, that's not how it works. The Leviathan being larger does not mean that it's tougher, because the Abomination has superpowers. The Abomination is tougher than the Leviathan. There is nothing inconsistent about the scene, so I don't see why you're trying to force inconsistencies where there aren't any. Now what would be an inconsistency is the fact that super strength appears to have come with super anchoring except when it doesn't, but that's ubiquitous for the genre and not what you were talking about anyway.
Squirrel Girl could kick the Hulk's ass, by the way.
If she was flying a plane equipped with six 500-pound AGM-65 Maverick missiles launched at Mach 1 complete with 125-pound shaped charge warheads, sure.wink

BTW, this isn't really a Civil War discussion, now that I think about it.

edited 13th Jul '17 12:01:48 AM by MonsieurThenardier

"It is very easy to be kind; the difficulty lies in being just."
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#72723: Jul 12th 2017 at 11:57:58 PM

[up][up]Yes, even the US military. Who are, apparently, complete Mary Sues who can kill anyone and anything if they wanted to.

But not Squirrel Girl. Squirrel Girl befriended Galactus. Squirrel Girl beat Thanos. Squirrel Girl beat Doom twice. Squirrel Girl mocks you with her awesomeness.

The movie is Like Reality Unless Otherwise Noted
Yes and both the Hulk and the Leviathan are part of the "otherwise noted" part of that sentence. So you can't bring reality in with them. That's like saying "Here's ten reasons why the Vision should obey the law of gravity." But he doesn't, because he's the Vision.

The Leviathan being larger does not mean that it's tougher, because the Abomination has superpowers.
I'm sorry, what, exactly, are the Abominations superpowers (aside from turning into a big monster like the Hulk)? And how do you know it's tougher than the Leviathan? You seem to be pulling stuff from, uh, your posterior.

edited 13th Jul '17 12:03:08 AM by alliterator

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#72724: Jul 13th 2017 at 12:00:55 AM

Squirrel Girl would bitch-slap the military industrial complex.

My various fanfics.
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#72725: Jul 13th 2017 at 12:02:15 AM

A few more points, then:

1) When someone says something is made out of titanium, they generally mean a titanium alloy, rather than pure titanium. Even if that's not what Tony meant, it doesn't change the fact that his armor exhibits strength and hardness far beyond what real life titanium or its alloys can achieve.

2) Since we don't know how much the Hulk weighs, it's hard to say for sure, but the two falls from airplanes shouldn't have that much different impact, due to him reaching terminal velocity.

3) I haven't been able to find a clip online to confirm, but I'm pretty sure that when the Chitauri are blasting Hulk, all their energy beams are hitting his body, so there's no reason for the roof to be damaged. But if they were hitting the roof and doing no damage, then that's just further proof that the power and effectiveness of attacks is wildly inconsistent, since we know the Hulk is bulletproof, so attacks that weak shouldn't harm him.

And just to add a further point:

4) Thor can swing his hammer with such force that the impact of it hitting Cap's shield creates a shockwave so big it knocks trees over, yet this somehow doesn't let him take the Hulk down with one half-strength hit.


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