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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#72676: Jul 12th 2017 at 8:00:49 PM

I think you're confusing the plot of Civil War for the context of Civil War - and for this reason, the idea that the governments of the world could be ignoring the growing gifted situation to solely care about the Avengers just doesn't make sense. The plot is that the governments of the world set restrictions on the Avengers, forcing Cap to make a damning choice at the worst time. The context of Civil War is that increasingly extreme situations and people have forced the governments of the world to change the way they deal with certain individuals, which includes the Accords with target the Avengers but is never implied to their only concern and is, in fact, indicated to be the opposite.

That the plot is only concerned about the Avengers for the sake of the story its trying to tell is not the same as the Avengers being the only relevant aspect here in the mythos, nor especially the idea that they should remain that way moving forward.

It's said in the movie itself that the Accords are part of a growing response (heck, Wakanda's part in the Accords negotiations is said to be spurred into action to deal with a changing world, and the event that explicitly gets their attention is Klaue selling Vibranium to Ultron), and the fact that the world is changing in ways that have to be dealt with is a recurring theme in the MCU as a whole. Curtailing with the Avengers is a pertinent first step, but nothing in the movie implies that everything stops there. The implication is that its the beginning of an era where the world is going to start cracking down on the situation in general.

Note that the alternative is that only the Avengers getting policed in the future while other characters who do the same things don't have to worry about it, which is at the very least a waste of a plot device given that most heroes going forward won't be Avengers, at worst a gaping plot hole. I don't blame the writers of Agents of SHIELD for expanding the idea - though again I don't gel with the Gifted Registration Act concept specifically - because doing so just makes far more sense than the alternative.

Treating the Accords as farther reaching than initially were may be a retcon, but it's not an unreasonable one for the potential in handwaving future plot points that would otherwise need to be introduced on their own.

edited 12th Jul '17 8:17:27 PM by KnownUnknown

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#72677: Jul 12th 2017 at 8:21:31 PM

If the Accords have a Registration Act-like component, why didn't we see Federal agents show up when Luke Cage started openly using his powers in public? It makes sense if the Accords are limited to what we saw in Civil War, since Luke's activities are a purely local matter and thus not the UN's jurisdiction. But if the government is tracking down any and all superpowered people, Luke's a pretty hard one to miss. It wouldn't surprise me if he was in the frickin' Yellow Pages.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#72678: Jul 12th 2017 at 8:22:02 PM

Luke Cage takes place before Civil War, that's why.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#72679: Jul 12th 2017 at 8:32:28 PM

I like my idea that Luke and Danny are going to play frisbee, but now I can't see it as anything but Luke driving an invisible car.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#72680: Jul 12th 2017 at 8:58:39 PM

Can't stop the train, baby.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#72681: Jul 12th 2017 at 9:21:17 PM

That part's utterly ridiculous because the Sokovia Accords are not a Registration Act. Like, not being the Super Human Registration Act was literally the point of introducing the Accords.
The Accords aren't a registration act. You only have to sign them if you work for the government, if you don't, you don't have to sign them or abide by them.

Now, you do have to register with SHIELD and have your name put on the Index when you openly use your powers, because that was well established before the Sokovia Accords. The MCU had registration before Civil War even happened.

I was for the Sokovia Accords until Agents of Shield and I think the accords was a big plot point in season 4.
The Accords were a smaller part of Season 4, because Daisy refused to sign them and went rogue. A former SHIELD agent turned vigilante is kind of a big embarrasment to SHIELD and the government. But none of the other Inhumans that SHIELD helped signed the Accords, unless they wanted to work for SHIELD (like Yo-Yo).

Yet another reason AOS isn't canon.
It's not canon because...you think the plot is weak? Well, that's a poor argument. I think the plot of Iron Man 2 is weak, but that doesn't make it non-canon.

The accords didn't need to exist. There's already laws in place that cover all of the Avengers.
Really? There's a law in place for Norse gods? Unfrozen super soldiers? Gamma-irradiated rage beasts? I mean, sure, laws for Stark and Romanov and Hawkeye, but the rest? I'm pretty sure a creative lawyer could point out all the flaws in the law.

edited 12th Jul '17 9:21:44 PM by alliterator

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#72682: Jul 12th 2017 at 10:06:01 PM

Really? There's a law in place for Norse gods? Unfrozen super soldiers? Gamma-irradiated rage beasts?

Actually... just as a side conversation, I suppose... yeah. If you were speaking entirely realistically (which the films aren't), then yes - there's laws in place for most of the Avengers.

While the world has never before seen the like of Thor's power and implications, for example, it has seen the like of what he's doing. Going into a foreign land and acting upon your own authority to handle problems because you don't think the people there can handle themselves. Asgard is basically the James Munroe to Midgard's Latin America. America having a grievance against Asgard after the first Thor wouldn't realistically be much different from Lagos having a problem with the Avengers in Civil War.

Being an unfrozen super soldier doesn't make Cap's actions exceptional from a legal standpoint either - especially since he goes straight back into a form of service after thawing out. Hulk is the weirdest case of the lot, what with the "government experiment gone rogue and under the protection of the most powerful corporation of the planet" stuff, but there's still a lot of things that can cover him.

edited 12th Jul '17 10:08:35 PM by KnownUnknown

MonsieurThenardier Searching from Murika Since: Nov, 2016 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
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#72683: Jul 12th 2017 at 10:12:39 PM

Really? There's a law in place for Norse gods?
Thor is effectively a foreign head of state, so yes. The Accords don't apply to him.
Unfrozen super soldiers?
Yes. He's subject to the current laws for vigilantes and government agents (especially if he still is an active-duty officer in the US Army). Him being able to bench press a lot doesn't actually change anything.
Gamma-irradiated rage beasts?
He's already a fugitive, again the law was not made for him. They really should just have a drone-strike-on-site policy for him by now tbh.
I mean, sure, laws for Stark and Romanov and Hawkeye, but the rest? I'm pretty sure a creative lawyer could point out all the flaws in the law.
Stark, Rhodey, Romanov, Wilson, Lang, and Barton are fundamentally just guys with privately owned weaponry. No special laws required for them. Maximoff is a mass murdering terrorist. Again, we already have laws for that. The problem with the idea of the Accords is that for the most part no one actually has superpowers, just privately-owned weapons. The innate supers are:

-Steve and Bucky, who are on the low end of superhuman and wouldn't require special treatment.

-Peter, who's in a similar boat to Steve and Bucky, and also was not even on the government's radar.

-Thor, who is a foreign head of state that never bothered the Earth and only showed up to retrieve rogue Frost Giant/Dark Elf terrorists.

-Bruce Banner, who is already a fugitive.

-Wanda Maximoff, who's already committed far more than the minimum number of crimes to land her in prison.

The only question mark is Vision. We don't have laws regarding the treatment of AI for obvious reasons. The Accords should concern him and only him.

edited 12th Jul '17 10:24:04 PM by MonsieurThenardier

"It is very easy to be kind; the difficulty lies in being just."
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#72684: Jul 12th 2017 at 10:13:58 PM

The problem is wanting some control over people who are really only bound by their own goodwill to help. Which is understandable from a national security standpoint, and there's a reason why interventionist foreign policy is generally frowned upon— things are more complicated than just going in and stomping on the bad guys.

Which is why you need the equivalent of SHIELD, to which the Accords could have been a prelude. But the whole thing was pretty much mishandled by all parties from the get-go, and provided Zemo with exactly the opportunity he wanted to break up the band, and you all know the rest from there.

edited 13th Jul '17 12:16:07 AM by Unsung

MonsieurThenardier Searching from Murika Since: Nov, 2016 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
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#72685: Jul 12th 2017 at 10:27:57 PM

SHIELD doesn't fulfill any function that existing agencies don't, aside from increasing the percentage of Crypto-Nazis in the government.

"It is very easy to be kind; the difficulty lies in being just."
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#72686: Jul 12th 2017 at 10:30:47 PM

They fulfilled the function of the Avengers actually listening to them. There was a trust there.

Seriously, I'm not saying it has to be SHIELD, but tossing the Avengers over to the UN and US Secretary of State carte blanche was never going to work. Some bridge-building is in order here.

edited 12th Jul '17 10:36:08 PM by Unsung

MonsieurThenardier Searching from Murika Since: Nov, 2016 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
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#72687: Jul 12th 2017 at 10:36:51 PM

3/6 of the Avengers by the time of Civil War are or were members of the United States Armed Forces. The rest were a KGB defector, a terrorist who should be in jail, and an AI. Of these only the AI really requires special treatment or bridge-building, because holy shit we just created life, why is no one treating this like a big deal?

"It is very easy to be kind; the difficulty lies in being just."
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#72688: Jul 12th 2017 at 10:41:51 PM

Because Battlestar Galactica's been off the air less than ten years and now we've got Westworld.

AOU really could and should've milked the reaction to Vision *and* Ultron for longer, but didn't, and now it's too late. Realistically you're right, but the entertainment value of adding in that ongoing HSQ in-universe is limited.

The Avengers who worked for the government worked for SHIELD, and the reason they're off on their own is because Hydra, through SHIELD, had apparently infiltrated governments and agencies far beyond SHIELD itself. They're the people least likely to walk into the open arms of the government again at the start of CW— and yes, they're also the instigators in Lagos along with Crossbones and thus the ones the Accords are specifically addressing, but they're still the best ones for the Accords leadership to reach out to and win over. That's not what happened.

edited 12th Jul '17 11:32:14 PM by Unsung

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#72689: Jul 12th 2017 at 10:42:14 PM

Now, you do have to register with SHIELD and have your name put on the Index when you openly use your powers, because that was well established before the Sokovia Accords. The MCU had registration before Civil War even happened.

The Index wasn't registration; it was just SHIELD, being an intelligence agency, collecting intelligence on people. It's the difference between having to file a report with the government that records all your movements (unless you're on some sort of parole, a gross violation of privacy rights), and a government agent discreetly following you around so they can keep their own log of your movements (unsettling, but perfectly legal).

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#72690: Jul 12th 2017 at 10:50:04 PM

So, I just found out that Scott Lang and my favorite Superior Foe of Spidey/Cap/Iron Man Janice Lincoln have had a thing in the comics recently, and while I like Hope... sort off (I like the character better without her being an obligatory love interesting)... I gotta say, that romantic arc sounds a lot more fun.

And hey, there's probably slightly less legal quagmire surrounding Janice (what with being a general Marvel villain introduced in Captain America, using the moniker of a Fantastic Four villain while being the daughter of a Spider-Man villain. And now appearing every once in a while alongside Ant-Man), right? Hey, I can dream can't I?

edited 12th Jul '17 10:51:48 PM by KnownUnknown

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#72691: Jul 12th 2017 at 11:00:57 PM

The only thing that provided Zeno an opportunity was Steve flying off the handle as usual and ignoring the part of Peggy's speech about compromising where you can.

Steve's had a habit of leaping before he leaps going as far back as his first film. It's like Chris Evans is playing Johnny Storm again but for some stupid reason has more people willing to go along with any inane idea he has.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#72692: Jul 12th 2017 at 11:02:23 PM

Cap is in Dragon Ball now?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#72693: Jul 12th 2017 at 11:05:04 PM

While the world has never before seen the like of Thor's power and implications, for example, it has seen the like of what he's doing.
Ah, but don't you have to be considered human for the laws to apply to you? For example, nobody is going to prosecute a lion for murder (they might just shoot it, but not prosecute it). And that's because a lion isn't human.

Thor is effectively a foreign head of state, so yes.
The word "effectively" hides a lot, such as the fact that he's not human and comes from another dimension.

He's already a fugitive, again the law was not made for him. They really should just have a drone-strike-on-site policy for him by now tbh.
Considering that a drone strike would cause more harm to the surrounding areas than it would to him, I'm pretty sure that's a bad idea.

Maximoff is a mass murdering terrorist.
Not to get into this argument again, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the fact that Maximoff might not even qualify as "human" after the experiments on her and her brother and whether or not the current laws apply to non-humans.

The Index wasn't registration; it was just SHIELD, being an intelligence agency, collecting intelligence on people.
Which is essentially what the Registration Act in Marvel Comics was sometimes — all you did was register your name and powers with SHIELD and then, if you wanted to be a superhero, you trained at Camp Hammond. If not, you didn't have to.

a government agent discreetly following you around so they can keep their own log of your movements (unsettling, but perfectly legal).
I don't actually think that's perfectly legal.

MonsieurThenardier Searching from Murika Since: Nov, 2016 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
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#72694: Jul 12th 2017 at 11:11:15 PM

The word "effectively" hides a lot, such as the fact that he's not human and comes from another dimension.
This doesn't actually change anything, you know. He's still a foreign head of state not subject to Earth's laws unless he legally immigrates here or Asgard and the United States go to war. Neither of which are happening.
Considering that a drone strike would cause more harm to the surrounding areas than it would to him,
He's been given concussions and been knocked unconscious by such things as terminal velocity falls and the Abomination throwing a concrete block at his face, and received nasty cuts from the shrapnel of a crashing helicopter, as well as receiving notable injuries from Stark essentially swinging a ~250-500 kg piece of titanium at his face over and over again at non-ridiculous speeds. We can do much better than that. There's a lot of drone-portable ordnance that would simply kill him outright.
Not to get into this argument again, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the fact that Maximoff might not even qualify as "human" after the experiments on her and her brother and whether or not the current laws apply to non-humans.
No, she's still a human. She's just a human that killed lots of people, voluntarily joined HYDRA, and aided someone in an attempt to kill billions. I don't see what the superpowers actually change here regarding her legal responsibility?

edited 12th Jul '17 11:13:40 PM by MonsieurThenardier

"It is very easy to be kind; the difficulty lies in being just."
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#72695: Jul 12th 2017 at 11:11:27 PM

[up][up][up] you joke but that's exactly what Civil War was; Dragon Ball without the self awareness

edited 12th Jul '17 11:11:57 PM by windleopard

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#72696: Jul 12th 2017 at 11:17:06 PM

He's been given concussions and knock unconscious by such things as terminal velocity falls and the Abomination throwing a concrete block at his face, and received nasty cuts from the shrapnel of a crashing helicopter, as well as receiving notable injuries from Stark essentially swinging a ~250-500 kg piece of titanium at his face over and over again at non-ridiculous speeds. We can do much better than that. There's a lot of drone-portable ordnance that would simply kill him outright.
You keep trying to use this argument, but getting cuts and bruises and temporarily knocked unconscious aren't the same thing as dying. There is nothing so far that we've seen that can kill the Hulk and any evidence present is circumstantial at best (oh no, he got some cuts and...then was perfectly fine).

Your argument seems to boil down to "The US military is the best and can kill anything, even fictional characters, no matter how tough they are." Which isn't a real argument at all.

No, she's still a human. She's just a human that killed lots of people and aided someone in an attempt to kill billions.
Last time I checked, humans can't move objects with just their minds. Pretty sure that makes her something other than human.

edited 12th Jul '17 11:17:45 PM by alliterator

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#72697: Jul 12th 2017 at 11:18:04 PM

[up][up]

That...makes no sense.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#72698: Jul 12th 2017 at 11:20:38 PM

Goddamn it, I thought I escaped this when I dropped the Wonder Woman thread. I don't wanna drop this one, too.

My various fanfics.
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#72699: Jul 12th 2017 at 11:21:00 PM

Civil War itself is plenty self-aware. Not the characters in it, but the film itself— the whole point is that every character involved thinks they're doing the right thing, but that people make mistakes born of not recognizing their own irrationalities. This is not in any way limited to fiction, so I don't have a problem with it showing up as the centrepiece of Civil War.

Cap gets away with being fairly impulsive because his moral compass in general is pretty well-tuned and his judgments about others often turn out to be right. That and he's just lucky. Gotta wonder if that wasn't part of the supersoldier serum as well, straight out of Ringworld.

[up]Wonder Woman's actually simmered down a bit, you're probably safe if you wanted to check back in.

edited 12th Jul '17 11:27:08 PM by Unsung

MonsieurThenardier Searching from Murika Since: Nov, 2016 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
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#72700: Jul 12th 2017 at 11:21:32 PM

You keep trying to use this argument, but getting cuts and bruises and temporarily knocked unconscious aren't the same thing as dying.
Yes, but it illustrates the level of force and energy required to damage his body. Which is not much. If it bleeds, get knocked out, and tires, we can kill it. Do you actually know what happens when something hits you hard enough to knock you out? By definition it is something that could have killed you.
Your argument seems to boil down to "The US military is the best and can kill anything, even fictional characters, no matter how tough they are." Which isn't a real argument at all."
My "argument" is simply "what happened in the film happened in the film, and what happened in the film is that a concrete block thrown at non-ridiculous speeds gave the Hulk brain damage." Your argument seems to be "Hulk is immortal because I said so", in which case [Citation Needed]. I'm getting a bit annoyed by your constant reliance on your own fan fiction rather than what's shown on-screen.

The US military couldn't kill, say, Goku. Because his on-screen durability showings are beyond their ability to exceed. But Hulk is a different story, because he demonstrably is vulnerable to forces far below what the US military can output with their conventional ordnance. Probably because making Hulk too powerful would break the universe the writers were going for.

Last time I checked, humans can't move objects with just their minds. Pretty sure that makes her something other than human.
No, it makes her a human with superpowers. She still has the mind of a human, and if you want to get technical, can still have fertile offspring with other humans. Again, how does this affect how she is dealt with legally?

edited 12th Jul '17 11:23:51 PM by MonsieurThenardier

"It is very easy to be kind; the difficulty lies in being just."

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