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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#72301: Jun 30th 2017 at 8:57:02 AM

I mixed up persecution with prosecution. Quirks of not being a native english speaker.

No worries. It remains funny that those words are so close together even as a native speaker.

Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#72302: Jun 30th 2017 at 9:02:07 AM

Not during, afterwards. Responsibilities in previous catastrophes or attacks are conspicuously absent of the Sokovia Accords. And we are not talkng about the kind of secret stuff that constitutes Natasha's Dark and Troubled Past, we are talking about the various mayhem caused by Stark's ego, Banner's anger issues or Wanda's alignment, which were witnessed by everyone in the world.

It's like the writers knew that, were they to start discussing the previous actions of superhumans in the accords, it would be too much of a minefield - so they just swept it under the rug. There isn't a mention of an Amnesty - for good reason, because if you get one by signing the accords, you can't stop supervillains from signing it and receive a "Get Out of Jail" card for their past crimes.

edited 30th Jun '17 9:02:17 AM by Julep

thatindiantroper Since: Feb, 2015
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#72304: Jun 30th 2017 at 9:05:23 AM

By the time of Civil War I'd agree all bets are off. In great part that is what the movie is about, after all (and Ross has his own guantanamo-ish drifting island prison).

I'd guess the accords have an amnesty clause somewhere, though. Otherwise there'd be very little incentive for Stark to sign them.

edited 30th Jun '17 9:06:19 AM by Gaon

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
ExplosiveLion Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
#72305: Jun 30th 2017 at 9:08:20 AM

Oh my fucking god, we've been over this, you guys. I was only joking when I said we should discuss Wanda instead.

Man, people don't let go.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#72307: Jun 30th 2017 at 9:13:07 AM

@ Zendaya reveal in Homecoming

That's the best way they could've done it. Would've been stupid for her to have been lying the whole time about not being Mary Jane and I wouldn't want studios normalizing the bullshit of Into Darkness. This way she was still technically telling the truth, and besides it lets them justify any changes to MJ because she is a different character here.

[up] I imagine Black Widow's findings at the end of TWS would be a huge help for his case. And a lot of the proceedings might focus on whether he's a current danger to everyone around him and needs to be institutionalized rather than his moral guilt.

edited 30th Jun '17 9:15:34 AM by AlleyOop

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#72308: Jun 30th 2017 at 9:14:38 AM

I rewatched the movie the other night (really a great movie and have some non- Team Cap vs. Team Iron Man thoughts), and as far as I can tell, the implication seems to be that the Avengers covered for Wanda. One thing that is kind of weird is that as part of the movie doing a sort of Reality Ensues deconstruction of previous movies, it presents the Avengers as much more "unsupervised" than I think previous movies implied.

But I don't think the movie is glossing over Wanda's actions. It's more like showing how the comic Heel–Face Turn uneasily relates to reality.

And yeah, I can't really see the real life equivalent of Wanda not getting a long prison sentence. One thing I think is a nice parallel, especially because I see there was a lot of contradictory testimony in terms of the guy's age, but the one surviving Somali pirate/hijacker of the incident depicted in that Captain Philips movie was sentenced to 33 years in prison. And that's probably as lenient as could be expected, especially because sympathetic backstory was probably more taken into account here than it would be for anyone engaging in terrorism.

I think Bucky might have a better chance in court. Not that the kind of mind control that exists in MCU exists in real life (well, as far as we know...), but there is an idea in English common law of Actus reus, meaning guilty intent as distinct from mens rea (guilty mind). Although there isn't much case law on it and its rarely successful, there is legal precedent for the idea that someone wouldn't be punished for a crime committed while sleepwalking or hypnotized.

edited 30th Jun '17 9:19:30 AM by Hodor2

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#72309: Jun 30th 2017 at 9:19:25 AM

I think it's worth pointing out that Wanda being on the Avengers was a real life last minute switch. Originally Whedon intended for Captain Marvel to occupy the shot she's introduced in. So maybe Wanda wasn't planned to join consequences-free.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#72310: Jun 30th 2017 at 9:22:02 AM

I think part of it is in how Markus and McFeely in an interview stated that Wanda was completely innocent, whereas Bucky was somewhat guilty in that he was technically complicit. Unfortunately the response I saw focused less on criticizing them about whitewashing Wanda (these fans believe in it hardcore and will get abusive towards anyone who disagrees) and more on the idea of "bawwwwww the writers personally hate Bucky and should not be allowed to write him or any other MCU films anymore".

It got bad enough that the writers actually had to issue a second statement about how they don't actually don't hate Bucky" and were referring to his psychological rather than his moral guilt but because they don't normally do these kinds of interviews they were just bad at explaining things. But either way Word of God at least seems to treat Wanda as blameless which is what fuels this interpretation, regardless of whether fans agree with it or not.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#72311: Jun 30th 2017 at 9:23:54 AM

Wonder what the plan was to do with her? Also, was Whedon anticipating her having already been in her own movie (Captain Marvel I mean)? Would be weird to introduce her out of nowhere.

One other criminal justice thought. I have a visceral negative reaction to Zemo's treatment/fate at the end of the movie. It's insanely cruel to imprison someone in a cell not much bigger than a coffin, and seemingly deny them the basic food and hygiene that even someone in the worst maximum security prison would receive. So yeah, I have a lot of personal sympathy for Tony on rewatch, but I'm not going to agree that either Ross was a good guy simply by association with him.

edited 30th Jun '17 9:24:04 AM by Hodor2

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#72312: Jun 30th 2017 at 9:26:36 AM

Part of the thing I think the movie tries to convey is that both sides have points but both sides are flawed. For all of Tony's good intentions and insubordination, Ross is still in charge.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#72313: Jun 30th 2017 at 9:26:37 AM

The concept of literal mind-control being a documented phenomenon in the MCU hurls a monkey wrench through our entire legal system. That's part of what the "complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel" means.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#72314: Jun 30th 2017 at 9:27:05 AM

They seriously stated that Wanda was not only completely innocent, but "less guilty" than Bucky?

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#72315: Jun 30th 2017 at 9:30:51 AM

[up][up][up][up]It was just going to be a cameo at the very end of the movie. Presumably she would have been explored more in Civil War. This was conceived before her movie had been greenlit, after all.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#72316: Jun 30th 2017 at 9:31:10 AM

[up][up][up]Oh boy do I agree. Like, the writer's statement on Wanda and Bucky is both mind-blowing and interesting at he same time because of this.

edited 30th Jun '17 9:31:20 AM by VeryMelon

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
thatindiantroper Since: Feb, 2015
#72318: Jun 30th 2017 at 9:56:57 AM

Seriously though that's just nuts.

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#72319: Jun 30th 2017 at 10:07:31 AM

@Spider-Man Homecoming spoiler: That's dumb. That's really really dumb. They should have just gone all the way with it because this is obviously an attempt to appease people who get upset if a character changes. This isn't even an In Name Only situation this is... I don't even know what this is. In Nickname Only?

edited 30th Jun '17 10:09:34 AM by LordVatek

This song needs more love.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#72320: Jun 30th 2017 at 10:10:08 AM

I've always thought the Maximovs were supposed to be in their late teens during Age of Ultron.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#72321: Jun 30th 2017 at 10:10:39 AM

I don't get why they would palette swap Mary Jane instead of just making up a new love interest, but whatever, I wasn't going to see the movie anyway.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#72322: Jun 30th 2017 at 10:14:33 AM

The same reason the MCU has done this a dozen times by now, I assume.

They were obviously banking on it being a twist for some stupid reason, even though everyone called it.

Is there a trope for obvious things the creators still treat as a surprise for some reason?

edited 30th Jun '17 10:17:27 AM by comicwriter

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#72323: Jun 30th 2017 at 10:19:31 AM

The Un-Twist

edited 30th Jun '17 10:20:35 AM by VeryMelon

Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#72324: Jun 30th 2017 at 10:26:02 AM

The concept of literal mind-control being a documented phenomenon in the MCU hurls a monkey wrench through our entire legal system.

That's true but as Jessica Jones proved, you need some very solid proof for it to hold in court. There is no way in hell "Wanda was near Loki's scepter" can be enough to completely forgive her for what she did, because she never was near Loki himself. The "documented mind control" was Loki + his scepter.

Especially as the existence of mind control can pretty much screw with any case (in a system which already has enough issues dealing with mental illness and being responsible or not of ones actions). So if you want to plead the mind control, you better make sure that your case is unbeatable. That's not the case with Wanda.

And if the Maximoffs were supposed to be teens, we are in full Dawson Casting territory. Elizabeth was clearly over 20 yo. If they wanted her to look like a teen, and as such as someone who might indeed be too young to fully grasp what she did, then they should have cast Abigail Breslin, Chloe Moretz, Amandla Stenberg or Isabelle Fuhrman.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#72325: Jun 30th 2017 at 10:31:32 AM

I don't think anyone was trying to say Wanda was brainwashed. It was just a general comment on what mind control elements would do to any legal system.


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