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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#72276: Jun 30th 2017 at 7:25:58 AM

Sorry if the comparison is distasteful, it's just that if we apply real-world logic, desperation never causes anyone to get away scot free after committing serious crimes, especially when those crimes can rightfully be called "terrorism". At best it can somehow lower the sentence if your crimes were not too bad, but in no way is anyone ever entirely forgiven because s/he had a shitty past.

The right thing to do is to fix the cause for the initial desperation, not to turn the desperate but guilty person into a Karma Houdini.

thatindiantroper Since: Feb, 2015
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#72278: Jun 30th 2017 at 7:42:39 AM

I believe that Cap and his kooky quartet didn't know ahead of time that the target was the biological weapon.

Also, I don't know what Vision was up to but Iron Man was semi-retired and focusing on his charity work.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#72279: Jun 30th 2017 at 7:51:43 AM

[up][up][up]That's why I've never understood "She suffered severe hardships and psychological trauma, so it's not her fault" as an argument. Like, that's sad and all but it's also not a defense that's gonna hold up in any court. Plenty of criminals with sad backgrounds commit crimes in real life. They just go to jail. To quote Brooklyn Nine Nine:

Easily Forgiven is one of those Necessary Weasel tropes that comics run on. It's a big part of the genre, but necessitates you don't actually look too closely, otherwise it starts looking pretty stupid.

thatindiantroper Since: Feb, 2015
#72280: Jun 30th 2017 at 7:53:19 AM

I meant Rhodey.

Also, you're telling me they knew the rough place the terrorists would be but didn't think to check up on what the target might be? Like I dont know a lab conducting bio weapon research.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#72281: Jun 30th 2017 at 8:02:32 AM

Rhodey clearly was on another mission, just like during Avengers.

He pulls double shifts between the military and the Avengers after all.

And we don't know how much heads up the Avengers got before Lagos. It doesn't seem like much. That's why they were doing reconnaissance when the movie starts.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#72282: Jun 30th 2017 at 8:12:16 AM

I don't know if you can hold Wanda responsible for working with Hydra since she hooked up with them prior to their public unmasking in The Winter Soldier. Tons of people worked for Hydra back then, including Captain America himself, and they're generally not held responsible for that fact because they didn't know who they were working for.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#72283: Jun 30th 2017 at 8:15:53 AM

To quote Superman, "These "no-nonsense" solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel". When dealing with the laws and customs of a world where ten thousand ancient conspiracies operate simultaneously and a few people have the power to level entire cities with a flick of their wrists, everything is murky.

If we are actually to sit down and analyze the legal case of The people V. Wanda Maximoff we first run into the actual problem of the legality of the Avengers in the post-SHIELD world. They were essentially a paramilitary organization when SHIELD was up but after its downfall the ground is murky. Assuming they still have at least tacit government approval during Age of Ultron, we could plausibly describe a trial.

Now, the accusations leveled against Wanda Maximoff are that she willingly cooperated with a terrorist organization. The prosecutor's argument: She expressed explicit support of the organization and cooperated not only with her but also the genocidal bot Ultron.

The defense:

  • HYDRA has a wealth of brainwashing methods and literally had a brainwashing prod in their possession, things that would be public knowledge under the SHIELD leak, not to mention this is a emotionally distraught war victim who was misled under false pretenses.

  • There's no proof she cooperated with Ultron willingly and not under explicit threat.

  • Here's the main problem: who's going to testify against her here? None of the Avengers will, and they're the only eyewitnesses of her cooperation with Ultron. Ultron is a heap of scrap and Von Strucker is dead.

  • She ultimately provided key assistance in Ultron's downfall (which would support the defense's spin that she was only cooperating with him under threat).

  • Given she's a emotionally unstable superpowered woman and given the lack of a organization specialized in dealing with differently powered individuals the defense could easily make a case her sentence should be rehabilitation under the care of The Avengers, experts in differently powered individuals.

The persecution does not have a very solid case here. All evidence is purely circumstantial. Without basically a single reliable eyewitness the case doesn't have a leg to stand on.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
thatindiantroper Since: Feb, 2015
#72284: Jun 30th 2017 at 8:17:58 AM

I can hold her responsible for tossing Hulk into a crowd of civilians.

Like joining a terrorist group to survive in away yorn hell hole I can forgive. Actually killing people or even clearly endangering people I can't.

[up] The Vision then. Or any one of the other methods I just detailed.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#72285: Jun 30th 2017 at 8:20:42 AM

This argument has been had before, but it's unclear if Wanda intentionally unleashed the Hulk on that city, or if she was trying to put Banner in the same sort of fugue state she'd put the other Avengers in, and this accidentally triggered the Hulk.

edited 30th Jun '17 8:21:00 AM by RavenWilder

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#72286: Jun 30th 2017 at 8:24:05 AM

I'm not talking about her moral guilt, I'm trying to assess roughly how an actual trial of Wanda Maximoff during or after Ao U would go. I'm trying to guess her legal guilt.

The Hulk thing wouldn't even be brought up during a trial. Literally no one who's not Wanda or the Avengers knows that and has no way of discovering.

Doing the same for her actions during Civil War is a moot point because they're criminals by the time the accords pass.

I'm guessing signing the accords also means full pardon for whichever "mishaps" you may have caused beforehand (otherwise it'd be a moot point offering it to the Avengers).

edited 30th Jun '17 8:25:26 AM by Gaon

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
thatindiantroper Since: Feb, 2015
#72287: Jun 30th 2017 at 8:28:35 AM

Oh my gods people she very deliberately made Banner Hulk out and launched him into a major population centre.

She wasnt brainwashed, we the audience know this. Are you seriously arguing that since a case against her can't be successfully mounted we shouldn't think of her as a criminal? Especially when one of your points is " The other heroes will lie to help her."

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#72288: Jun 30th 2017 at 8:30:35 AM

Can you prove this in court? Where is the proof Banner hulked out under her control? It's a raging green monster that has done similar things before with no psychic assistance.

Like, you do get I'm not defending Wanda as much as doing a What If? hypothesizing how a trial would go down, right?

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#72289: Jun 30th 2017 at 8:33:59 AM

Pretty sure Bruce could and would testify to what Wanda did to him

The last time Banner bulked out of control was when Loki's sceptre influenced him in the Avengers. Outside of these two incidents, Banner is in fool control of the Hulk

edited 30th Jun '17 8:35:51 AM by windleopard

thatindiantroper Since: Feb, 2015
#72290: Jun 30th 2017 at 8:34:34 AM

Okay fine.

I... just don't really care about that, that much. I'm addressing the people who seem to think it's not a problem that she's just accepted as a hero after that. Or that after the fuck up n Lagos the people hurt have a right to demand legal proceedings against her.

ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#72291: Jun 30th 2017 at 8:34:53 AM

Keep in mind, she Mind Whammied the Hulk after she did the same to Thor. It worked perfectly on Thor, so she had no reason to assume it wouldn't work on Bruce Banner.

Which, I mean, it kinda did. After all, Bruce Banner clearly did NOT have control of Hulk.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#72292: Jun 30th 2017 at 8:36:47 AM

Pretty sure Bruce could and would testify to what Wanda did to him

Bruce fucked off to God-knows-where. He can't testify on account of being MIA.

edited 30th Jun '17 8:37:06 AM by Gaon

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
thatindiantroper Since: Feb, 2015
#72293: Jun 30th 2017 at 8:38:05 AM

Even if her dialogue hadn't implied she wanted it to happen ... it still did happen and it was her fault.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#72294: Jun 30th 2017 at 8:38:28 AM

It is pretty fun to imagine how a trial with Wand or Bucky would go down. Much more fun then starting up the same meaningless argument over either's moral guilt.

Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#72295: Jun 30th 2017 at 8:39:01 AM

The persecution does not have a very solid case here. All evidence is purely circumstantial.

Yet Guantanamo is a thing that exists in our real world, and it is run by a rather democratic country specifically for when some possible enemies of the state might fall outside of their legal system.

Can you prove this in court? Where is the proof Banner hulked out under her control? It's a raging green monster that has done similar things before with no psychic assistance.

Then if you have no proof, you lock up the bunch of idiots who made fools of themselves by thinking they could partner with him. That is, Iron Man, Hawkeye, Captain America, Thor and Black Widow.

People tend to want to find who is responsible for what. If indeed the Avengers go for the "naaaah it was the Hulk being the Hulk" because they want to cover for Wanda, then they should be locked up for allowing that to happen.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#72296: Jun 30th 2017 at 8:39:53 AM

If Bruce showed up to testify, he'd be arrested right alongside her, especially with General "Thunderbolt" "I like golf" Ross in charge.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#72297: Jun 30th 2017 at 8:40:08 AM

Prosecution, not persecution. Heh.

It's more about the Avengers themselves not really calling her out than about taking her before a tribunal. Like I think it would be a good character beat for someone to point this out. I'm sure she knows and that it informs her actions, and it wouldn't actually be great to provoke her, given her instability. But I think it's important to continue to acknowledge that this happened in-universe, for the sake of verisimilitude.

Though again, I think as written Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver were intended to be younger than the actors we see, and if they just looked younger, the whole 'not in control of their actions' defense would seem like it held more water.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#72298: Jun 30th 2017 at 8:46:31 AM

To the Raft with the lot of them!

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#72299: Jun 30th 2017 at 8:49:13 AM

Been there, broke out, bought the commemorative miniature snow globe.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#72300: Jun 30th 2017 at 8:51:35 AM

I mixed up persecution with prosecution. Quirks of not being a native english speaker.

For clarity's sake, I actually agree people should have called out Wanda on her actions and she should have suffered some consequence.

Yet Guantanamo is a thing that exists in our real world, and it is run by a rather democratic country specifically for when some possible enemies of the state might fall outside of their legal system.

Problem is, after no less than two shady conspiracies going to the very top of the US government system in quick succession (Aldrich Killian and HYDRA) I'm going to guess a Guantanamo-esque situation against the people who saved the world twice would not be feasible for PR, at least not at the time of Age of Ultron, particularly when you account with the fall of SHIELD and the mini SHIELD-HYDRA civil war all the superpowered prisons are in shambles.

It's too much of a nightmare to lock up "Earth's Mightiest Heroes" by the point of Ao U. Particularly when you have no one who can actually handle or contain them.

Then if you have no proof, you lock up the bunch of idiots who made fools of themselves by thinking they could partner with him. That is, Iron Man, Hawkeye, Captain America, Thor and Black Widow. People tend to want to find who is responsible for what. If indeed the Avengers go for the "naaaah it was the Hulk being the Hulk" because they want to cover for Wanda, then they should be locked up for allowing that to happen.

I very much doubt there'd be any chance of arresting the Avengers during Ao U, for reasons I elaborated beforehand. I can see them being fined, though.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."

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