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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#72226: Jun 29th 2017 at 10:37:22 PM

As an anime fan, I am perfectly comfortable with the idea that you cannot judge a character's speed based on how fast they appear to be moving on screen. My favorite example is when Naruto has Sasuke, a character shown to be able to move so fast that, from a normal person's perspective, he seems to be teleporting, charge at another character at what is explicitely stated to be his absolute top speed . . . and this lasts for several minutes of screen time, with another character watching it able to give a lengthy exposition dump in the time it takes for Sasuke to complete his charge.

As for Cap's shield, it's pretty clear that whether it bounces off objects or embeds itself in them is not at all consistent. As Spidey noted, it does not seem to follow normal laws of physics.

edited 29th Jun '17 10:37:59 PM by RavenWilder

MonsieurThenardier Searching from Murika Since: Nov, 2016 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
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#72227: Jun 29th 2017 at 10:45:08 PM

None of that makes any sense
It makes perfect sense. What you're saying on the other hand is genuinely incomprehensible.
None of the Avengers are "regular human martial artists."
You're right, they're slower. Or at least Hawkeye and Black Widow are, since they're played by normal actors who themselves aren't particularly quick. The Ultron Bots aren't at all hard to take out, that much is clearly demonstrated on screen.
Did he actually destroy it or did he just push off a cliff?
He wasn't near a cliff. He kicked it and pieces of metal went flying off the bot's torso.
All of his arrows are specially made and modified with special arrowheads.
Not all of them, some are completely mundane.

But that statement was just hilarious because it's an oxymoron.

And you know it's a regular arrowhead because...what?
Because it looks and acts like one? Why would you assume it's a mega-ultra arrow when nothing indicates as much?
As Spider-Man rightfully pointed out, his shield doesn't obey the laws of physics. None of the superpowers in the MCU obey the laws of physics
Well you're wrong there. While it does mess with physics with how it handles vibrations, its penetrative ability is still demonstrably linked to how fast it's thrown or swung, hence why its speed in the scene where he throws it at that APC in FA is faster than it is when he throws it at the van in TWS. K.E. = 1/2 m v2 is still in effect in the MCU.
Solution: no, you fucking can't
Problem: yes, you totally can.

Additional problem: you're getting worked up over nothing again.

edited 29th Jun '17 10:48:03 PM by MonsieurThenardier

"It is very easy to be kind; the difficulty lies in being just."
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#72228: Jun 29th 2017 at 10:49:40 PM

I can't say I can see the point you're trying to make here, Thernadier. It's a film. Artistic license and actual limitations are expected when it comes to portraying actual superpowers. This isn't Death Battle, there's no reason to quantify the basic math of fight scenes.

Because by some very basic laws of logic, Hawkeye's a shit archer.

By this point, it feels like you're just being purposefully pedantic.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
MonsieurThenardier Searching from Murika Since: Nov, 2016 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
Searching
#72229: Jun 29th 2017 at 10:54:48 PM

My point is that what happened in the film is what happened in the film. That should be completely inarguable.

"It is very easy to be kind; the difficulty lies in being just."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#72230: Jun 29th 2017 at 10:56:20 PM

I actually agree with him in this case. In essence, all he's been saying is that the characters are as strong, fast, etc, as they're actually portrayed in the movies. The OP was basically that we can actually see how fast Hawkeye is in the film, and he's slower than you might think.

From what I can tell about the course of this argument, he's been forced to get increasingly pedantic in response to people getting increasingly nitpicky in objecting to it. I'm with him on being confused about why this has become such a big deal.

edited 29th Jun '17 10:57:16 PM by KnownUnknown

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#72231: Jun 29th 2017 at 10:57:17 PM

@ Monsieur Thenardier, Alliterator

Can you pleeaaasse drop this? Both of you have severe issues with insisting on dragging out arguments pointlessly because you feel the need to have "won" decisively. So of course it's never going to end. This is not the first thread you've derailed because you get too personally invested and can't let it go. So just drop it. Please.

By the way I also agree that Thenardier is being needlessly pedantic here. But Alliterator you're also being needlessly aggressive towards him over it. At this point it's not a real argument, it's e-penis fencing.

@ Maple Samurai

Vulture also indulges in a nice delicious box of Krispy Kremes.

edited 29th Jun '17 11:05:21 PM by AlleyOop

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#72232: Jun 29th 2017 at 11:00:32 PM

Well you're wrong there.
No, I'm right: his shield and all the MCU superpowers don't obey the laws of physics. Hell, Cap's shield is made of vibranium, right? So it absorbs vibrations...so it should absorb all sounds around it, too, making it completely quiet. But it's not, because movies need sound effects. When Thor flies, he throws his hammer and holds on...but that would rip out his arm from his should if he was real, but he isn't, so it totally works. Bruce Banner? Actually gains mass when he becomes the Hulk and then loses mass when he turns back into puny Banner, violating all known laws of physics (same thing when Cap was injected with the super soldier serum). Ant-Man violates the square-cube law. Vision grew a cape. From where? Nowhere!

None of their powers obey the laws of physics. Why? Because it looks cooler that way.

It makes perfect sense. What you're saying on the other hand is genuinely incomprehensible.
No, I'm saying that you can't measure something that isn't real. The MCU isn't hard science fiction, where they mapped out exactly what the speed and velocity of things were before they did it. The MCU is a place where magic literally exists. You can't measure the speed of something when it's a fantasy. That's like trying to explain how the One Ring works.

You're right, they're slower. Or at least Hawkeye and Black Widow are, since they're played by normal actors who themselves aren't particularly quick.
Now you are complaining that highly trained assassins are being played by regular actors. You know what Suspension of Disbelief is, right? That's when you suspend your disbelief and instead remember that Black Widow and Hawkeye are highly trained special agents.

He wasn't near a cliff. He kicked it and pieces of metal went flying off the bot's torso.
I'm not sure what you are complaining about. The fact that Ultron made a robot that had moving pieces that could be kicked off? I mean, that just seems self-evident.

Because it looks and acts like one? Why would you assume it's a mega-ultra arrow when nothing indicates as much?
Because all his arrows had special arrowheads. Why would you assume it's a normal arrowhead when he's never used normal arrowheads before?

Problem: yes, you totally can.
No you can't, since it doesn't obey the laws of physics. This is like saying that you can measure how fast Warp 10 is.

The OP was basically that we can actually see how fast Hawkeye is in the film, and he's slower than you might think.
Not Hawkeye, Quicksilver. And no, you can't see how fast Quicksilver is in the film, because he's a speedster, that's kind of the point. In fact, the OP was making a joke. (It was a meme.)

My point is that what happened in the film is what happened in the film. That should be completely inarguable.
What happened in the film is what happened in the film. But, again, it's a fantasy film. Trying to measure the inches between characters to extrapolate how fast Quicksilver is is pointless. You can't measure how fast he is because his speed is the speed of plot. How long does it take for him to get to a place? The exact time the plot needs for him to get there.

edited 29th Jun '17 11:05:47 PM by alliterator

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#72233: Jun 29th 2017 at 11:01:19 PM

They should put the Blob in Shocker armour. I know the Copyright Abyss prevents them from doing that in the movies, but the comics are wide-open for it.

In fact, forget giving everyone a symbiote. For the next pointless crossover, I want everyone to get Shocker costumes and gauntlets, and they can call it Pillow Fight.

ExplosiveLion Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
#72234: Jun 29th 2017 at 11:42:19 PM

Quick, someone change the subject! Uhm, ok, there is... uhm...

Oh, right! So, uh, that Wanda chick, she's pretty great, isn't she? Not at all responsible for... Wait, no, that's controversial too... uhm, well, ok, has anyone considered how the UN would control the Avengers with the Sok-aw shit, forget what I said!

Fuck it. Edward Norton's Hulk, pretty neat, best Hulk ever or wha-AW COME ON!

MedusaStone Since: Jan, 2015
#72235: Jun 30th 2017 at 12:04:39 AM

Okay, I'll try. I saw a trailer on Youtube for a movie called Atomic Blond. It cemented the idea in my mind that if Yelena Belova is ever introduced to MCU, Charlize Theron should play her.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#72236: Jun 30th 2017 at 12:05:02 AM

I am somewhere in the middle of Jessica Jones in my rewatch. Though I am currently taking a break (The show is great, but it is a hard watch, especially when at the same time you have an US president complimenting female reporters for their smile and making sexist remarks on twitter) for some White Collar lightness.

Also, I would like to repeat an observation I made in the Inhumans threat: Why the hell do we keep acting as if there is something wrong with Marvel TV? For one, there is this tendency to see the Netflix shows as totally disconnected, as if Loeb has nothing to do with them. Two, there is this tendency to act as if everything what ABC does is automatically bad. Every single show they have announced so far gets a reaction as if they just took a dump in the middle of Comic Con. Every single time there are complains about the trailer, how awful the idea is aso. Meanwhile Agent Carter was great mini-series with a lot of style and Agents of Shield is not just the best Comic book show ever (and I stick to this opinion), it is one of the best shows which have ever been on TV overall. But even after they delivered a great rendition of Ghost Rider, there was still whining going on that Ghost Rider should be on Netflix. Why? Honestly, why? If this doesn't stop, ABC won't bother anymore at one point. Why can't we simply appreciate the quality we get and that they even bother to delve into properties and characters I would have never expected to see in live action TV in the first place.

thatindiantroper Since: Feb, 2015
#72237: Jun 30th 2017 at 12:06:15 AM

You know Cap's insistence that the nations affected by Wandas mistake in Laos don't even deserve the right to conduct an investigation or prosecution at all is shocking.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#72238: Jun 30th 2017 at 12:07:16 AM

[up][up]

Literally nobody here is badmouthing ABC about it, the Inhumans trailer just looks like shit and Scott Buck already gave us one shitty Marvel show so there's barely any hope it'll turn out good.

[up]

Since when were they in Asia?

edited 30th Jun '17 12:07:33 AM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#72239: Jun 30th 2017 at 12:07:51 AM

[up][up] Can you point to me the scene in which Cap said that?

[up] Yeah, and they said the same thing about Ao S and Agent Carter...the trailer looked bad and who wants to see those shows anyway.

edited 30th Jun '17 12:10:21 AM by Swanpride

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#72240: Jun 30th 2017 at 12:12:10 AM

Anybody here, though? You keep saying "everybody" but I don't see anybody saying that about either show.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#72241: Jun 30th 2017 at 12:14:48 AM

[up] Even here. I remember distinctively how hard it was to get excited about Agent Carter because every time a new trailer dropped there was a discussion how cheesy it looked and a lot doom and gloom that it will never catch on.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#72242: Jun 30th 2017 at 12:17:04 AM

Okay, well, it turned out good. That was one time. Inhumans is being run by the same bloke who ran Iron Fist (a godawful trainwreck only salvageable by everything not involving the main character) and it looks cheap as heck. Plus, given Agent Carter was about espionage and didn't really need a huge budget while Inhumans really needs a huge budget given what's in it, it's even worse and automatically puts it under more scrutiny.

edited 30th Jun '17 12:17:33 AM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#72243: Jun 30th 2017 at 12:23:18 AM

I really don't remember anything like that for Agent Carter. All I remember is the first season's teaser getting complaints of a really tacky tagline, and the second season's trailer was received fine except for one user who had some kind of weird hang up about the music.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#72244: Jun 30th 2017 at 12:28:38 AM

Wasn't around these forums for Agent Carter, but for what it's worth, I liked the show quite a bit.

Look, we can only talk about what the creators put out. If people are disappointed that a property that's as effects-heavy as Inhumans which was pitched as being Marvel's Game of Thrones looks this cheesy both in terms of dialogue and visuals, I don't think that's being unfair.

edited 30th Jun '17 12:28:52 AM by Unsung

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#72245: Jun 30th 2017 at 12:29:38 AM

I checked the thread just now, literally nobody complained about Agent Carter outside of maybe one or two comments saying the slogan was kind of cheesy. That's about it.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#72246: Jun 30th 2017 at 12:32:51 AM

But shouldn't we also give ABC the benefit of the doubt? Especially considering that Iron Fist really did well when if came to drawing layered characters and showing some intrigue. Isn't that exactly what is needed for a game of throne-like show?

Honestly, I am way more concerned with the nation that way too much of the Inhumans series might be set on earth than anything else.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#72247: Jun 30th 2017 at 12:34:16 AM

I'm giving ABC the benefit of the doubt, I'm not giving Scott Buck the benefit of the doubt. It's not an ABC problem, it's a Scott Buck problem.

And there was maybe only one multi-layered Iron Fist character, and that was Ward. Maybe there'll be another one on Inhumans but my faith for Scott Buck to make anything worthwhile is low to the point of basic nonexistence right now.

edited 30th Jun '17 12:36:41 AM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#72248: Jun 30th 2017 at 12:43:34 AM

Why do we owe it to them to make excuses and basically do their advertising department's job for them? It's their show. The power to cut together a trailer is in their hands. If you crap out a lame trailer, people are going to rag on it, and excitement for your movie/show/game/whatever is going to stall. That seems perfectly fair to me.

And of course they can still win their audience back, but it's not like people are judging this book by its cover and not giving it a second glance, they're judging it by actual moments from the show, and most of them are still here, waiting to be impressed.

edited 30th Jun '17 12:48:13 AM by Unsung

thatindiantroper Since: Feb, 2015
#72249: Jun 30th 2017 at 1:22:54 AM

Inhumans: Shot on I MAX.

On a Dr Who budget.

Oh and regarding Cap. He flips his shit when he finds out she's under house arrest, pretty much the mildest outcome for her considering the situation.

MonsieurThenardier Searching from Murika Since: Nov, 2016 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
Searching
#72250: Jun 30th 2017 at 2:45:12 AM

I actually agree with him in this case. In essence, all he's been saying is that the characters are as strong, fast, etc, as they're actually portrayed in the movies. The OP was basically that we can actually see how fast Hawkeye is in the film, and he's slower than you might think.

From what I can tell about the course of this argument, he's been forced to get increasingly pedantic in response to people getting increasingly nitpicky in objecting to it. I'm with him on being confused about why this has become such a big deal.

Yes, that's it, thank you. I honestly don't know what was so hard to understand about it.

This is not the first thread you've derailed because you get too personally invested and can't let it go. So just drop it. Please.
Fine.

So how about that Spider-Man? Average scores from early screenings so far seem to hover around 7-8/10 (7.7 on RT, 74 on Metacritic). Will probably decrease slightly after general release given the usual trend and end up around 7/10. Box office projections? I'm betting around $800-900 million just based on name recognition. ASM-2 did $700 million without the MCU brand name on top of Spider-Man's and it was mediocre with an RT approval rating of 52% and average score of 5.7/10. Doubt it will beat any of the Raimi trilogy though. Adjusted to June 2017 dollars, each of those films grossed well over a billion. Albeit, on (inflation-adjusted) larger budgets than Homecoming's $180 million.

You know Cap's insistence that the nations affected by Wandas mistake in Laos don't even deserve the right to conduct an investigation or prosecution at all is shocking.
Lagos. But yeah, Cap was pretty much 100% in the wrong and Wanda should have been sent to a very tight cell years ago after all the shit she pulled in Ao U. Hence the need to make the opposition strawmen under the control of Thaddeus "Quickly, men! Wear out the Hulk's arms with your faces!" Ross.

edited 30th Jun '17 2:59:41 AM by MonsieurThenardier

"It is very easy to be kind; the difficulty lies in being just."

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