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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#71801: Jun 18th 2017 at 11:55:52 AM

Eh. That's a cop-out. I don't think it was really about them being hampered, or rather the hampering only occurred because they were being ignored.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#71802: Jun 18th 2017 at 12:07:23 PM

[up][up] I actually think that the reason why there were less connections in the third and fourth season was a combination of timing and the kind of movies which got released. Ant-man was released during the hiatus, so Ao S could only do a name-drop, Civil war did get a tie-in with the Sokovia accord having quite an impact on the show, and Doctor Strange and Got G Vol 2 are simply not the kind of movies which allow a direct tie-in (though they did take over quite a bit from Doctor Strange for the Ghost Rider arc).

Anyway, they gave the fans exactly what was promised, an universe in which everything is connected. They never promised direct cross-overs from the TV-shows to the movies.

edited 18th Jun '17 12:08:14 PM by Swanpride

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#71803: Jun 18th 2017 at 12:12:54 PM

They never promised direct cross-overs from the TV-shows to the movies.
Exactly. The people who are complaining are either people who want Iron Man to appear on the show or people who want the show's characters to appear in the movies. Which, I'll admit, would be cool, but the logistics of making that would be a nightmare (the turnaround for an episode of TV is very quick, so they can do a lot of references to the movies, but the turnaround for a movie is years, so they can't do references to shows that came out a few months ago).

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#71804: Jun 18th 2017 at 12:13:54 PM

Eh. That's a cop-out. I don't think it was really about them being hampered, or rather the hampering only occurred because they were being ignored.

Still my favorite.

"Spin class at 3."

edited 18th Jun '17 12:14:14 PM by comicwriter

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#71805: Jun 18th 2017 at 12:15:38 PM

[up][up][up] and [up][up] See, that seems like defending them in ways they don't really need. Being connected to the larger MCU, able to comment on and lead into movies as they were coming out, that was pretty much the original selling point of the show, what with Asgardians showing up and Maria Hill and Nick Fury guesting. I think we have a pretty good idea of why that's not happening anymore, and I don't think it's because the show was just like "Oh, star power? Movie tie-ins? No thank you, we can stand on our own juuust fine."

I think the show *can* stand on its own, but I don't think doing that was ever their first choice. Coulson's the ultimate in-universe fan, so baked into the premise you have the idea that the more fanservice the show can do, the better.

I understand the difficulties involved. That's why people were so hype about the show, because it seemed like they were going to take on those difficulties anyway.

[up]Good dental hygiene is very important when the size and shape of your teeth and mouth are in constant flux.

AOS should've just ignored the crisis and gone to Six Flags with Ant-Man. That would've been a good episode. Paul Rudd isn't that expensive, is he?

edited 18th Jun '17 1:00:39 PM by Unsung

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#71806: Jun 18th 2017 at 12:17:56 PM

The set-up seems fairly simple to me. Spider-Man: Homecoming is Canon for the MCU, so what happens in it will be treated as having happened in other MCU properties. It will also be canon for Sony's various Spider-Man spinoffs, so what happens in Homecoming will also be treated as having happened in those movies as well. That doesn't necessarily make these movie franchises part of the same universe, though. They can easily be different universes, where certain events involving Peter Parker learning to be a hero and fighting the Vulture just happened to play out the same in both.

Think of it like the Godzilla movies, where there have been many different Reboots and alternate continuties over the decades, but (except for the American versions) they all treat the original 1954 Gojira as canon. The Showa Era movies of The '50s, Sixties, and Seventies followed on from Gojira in standard sequel fashion. When the series rebooted in The Eighties with Godzilla 1984, it kept the events of the original movie canon, but claimed that nothing else giant monster related occurred between 1954 and 1984. The same tactic has been taken with every Japanese reboot of the character since then.

edited 18th Jun '17 12:19:47 PM by RavenWilder

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#71807: Jun 18th 2017 at 12:21:36 PM

[up]"Spider-Man, call the Avengers for backup!" "Who?"

edited 18th Jun '17 12:22:09 PM by comicwriter

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#71808: Jun 18th 2017 at 12:23:31 PM

[up][up] I doubt that the common movie-goer will make that distinction.

Halberdier17 We Are With You Zack Snyder from Western Pennsylvania Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
We Are With You Zack Snyder
#71809: Jun 18th 2017 at 12:25:42 PM

[up]It doesn't matter they already think the X Men movies are in the MCU.

Some even think the DC movies are in the MCU because they don't know the difference between DC and Marvel.

Batman Ninja more like Batman's Bizarre Adventure
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#71810: Jun 18th 2017 at 12:26:06 PM

I think we have a pretty good idea of why that's not happening anymore, and I don't think it's because the show was just like "Oh, star power? Movie tie-ins? No thank you, we can stand on our own."
Considering that the show has been the most critically praised in Season 4 (the one with the least amount of MCU tie-ins), I'd say that the show's writers do like being independent. The first season was hampered by the fact that they couldn't say the word "Hydra" until Winter Soldier came out, but the fourth season was able to use Ghost Rider, LMDs, and an entire virtual alternate reality. Some of that is simply because they asked and got permission from Marvel (the use of Ghost Rider), but not having to tie into any movies also allowed them a certain freedom to do what they wanted.

Now, does the show still want those tie-ins? Of course. Every tie-in potentially brings more viewers and they want all the viewers they can get (especially since Season 4 might have been the best critically, but it was the worst ratings wise). But that doesn't mean that they want to lose the independence they have achieved so far or the ability to tell stories outside of the main MCU.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#71811: Jun 18th 2017 at 12:26:44 PM

Never said they did. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#71812: Jun 18th 2017 at 12:30:36 PM

Movie goers not making the distinction works in Sony's favor. They're gonna think hey if Tom Holland is Spider-Man in both of these movies then they must take place in the same universe.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#71813: Jun 18th 2017 at 12:39:45 PM

But it doesn't work in the favour of the MCU. Sony can't just go, make movies and claim that they are connected in any shape or form to the MCU without Marvel's permission, and I see no reason for Marvel to agree, especially not without having considerable say over the movies.

Again, the first time the deal fell through was because the two studios couldn't agree on creative control. The second time it was officially claimed that Sony has creative control, but let's be real, that was mostly a polite lie, it is obvious that Feige has last say. There is no way whatsoever that Marvel will allow those movies to happen without having any control over them. Sony might, just might, have had a change to get away with making the movies and keeping the connection vague, but now that they officially announced that said connection exists, Marvel would have had an easy time to sue.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#71814: Jun 18th 2017 at 12:56:15 PM

But it doesn't work in the favour of the MCU.

Well, yes. But they're not the ones in need of the help, which I suppose is the point.

The second time it was officially claimed that Sony has creative control, but let's be real, that was mostly a polite lie, it is obvious that Feige has last say.

Really? Because I can't possibly see that being true. They were in a bad way and desperately needed help with the franchise, but I cannot imagine they went and relinquished the right to approval on what is done with their characters. Were that the case I doubt they would have mentioned Venom and Black Cat movies period.

edited 18th Jun '17 12:58:53 PM by comicwriter

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#71815: Jun 18th 2017 at 1:37:26 PM

So this is confusing.

So, like, does Spider-Man: Homecoming exist in a state of dimensional flux then?

Though yeah, Feige's face screams "we're gonna have a looooong talk about this. Or, more accurately, our lawyers are".

edited 18th Jun '17 1:43:03 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#71816: Jun 18th 2017 at 1:42:27 PM

Spider-Man Homecoming exists inside of a locked box where the franchise may be considered simultaneously both alive and dead at the same time.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#71817: Jun 18th 2017 at 1:48:21 PM

[up][up] Glad that I am not the only one who sees that.

ExplosiveLion Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
#71818: Jun 18th 2017 at 2:02:07 PM

As I've said, it makes absolutely no damn sense. There's no way that Marvel isn't the least bit involved in those movies if they are connected to the MCU, however slightly. It's that simple.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#71819: Jun 18th 2017 at 2:41:49 PM

When the deal was announced I remember them mentioning that Marvel would direct the movies while Sony would produce them. Was that limited to the Tom Holland trilogy or did it apply to Sony Spider-Man films in general?

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#71820: Jun 18th 2017 at 2:50:00 PM

[up]This was from the initial announcement:

Under the deal, the new Spider-Man will first appear in a Marvel film from Marvel’s Cinematic Universe (MCU). Sony Pictures will thereafter release the next installment of its $4 billion Spider-Man franchise, on July 28, 2017, in a film that will be co-produced by Kevin Feige and his expert team at Marvel and Amy Pascal, who oversaw the franchise launch for the studio 13 years ago. Together, they will collaborate on a new creative direction for the web slinger. Sony Pictures will continue to finance, distribute, own and have final creative control of the Spider-Man films.

Variety had more details.

Marvel Studios won’t pay Sony Pictures for the rights to put Spider-Man in “Captain America: Civil War,” the “Avengers” franchise or its other superhero films, as part of its new partnership with the studio, according to sources with knowledge of the deal. At the same time, Marvel won’t receive a cut of the box office for any of Sony’s films that feature Spider-Man. Sony won’t receive a percentage of the revenue Disney makes from Marvel’s films that have Spider-Man, either.

edited 18th Jun '17 2:51:02 PM by comicwriter

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#71821: Jun 18th 2017 at 3:01:05 PM

It wouldn't be the first time that Amy Pascal makes a sudden announcement which catches everyone else flat footed.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#71822: Jun 18th 2017 at 6:53:50 PM

There's no way that Marvel isn't the least bit involved in those movies if they are connected to the MCU, however slightly.
Marvel's not involved and they are not connected to the MCU.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#71824: Jun 18th 2017 at 8:22:10 PM

To try and cut through the confusion of "is it connected? Is it not?" what's happening is that Sony is trying to play it both ways and have their cake and eat it too: while Homecoming is connected to the MCU, Sony wants to have their own projects of their own, but still apparently be able to say they're connected to Homecoming to get that sweet synergy money and clout and (indirectly) ride the MCU's coattails.

Marvel Studios is almost certainly going to have a problem with this, in part because it's a continuity snarl waiting to happen, in part because such waffling screws with their control over the things that are relevant to their universe.

edited 18th Jun '17 8:23:32 PM by KnownUnknown

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#71825: Jun 18th 2017 at 9:55:00 PM

Fitzgerald met Hemingway, Einstein met Gandhi, King Kong met Godzilla, and now Thor has met Symmetra and Sombra.


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