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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#71501: Jun 3rd 2017 at 1:01:33 AM

First of all, The Punisher doesn't kill ALL criminals. He kills the worst of the worst, and that's something that the people who actually write him well understand.

And second, the problem with putting Frank in with regular superhero comics (and perhaps this is why Punisher Max works so well overall, it's in it's own somewhat more grounded world) is that he brings the inherent flaw in said comics into sharp contrast. These comics are built to last indefinitely, and they're built on recognizable characters. So you want to keep your big villains around because, well you make money off of them.

Which would be fine, IF many comics wouldn't feel the need to get "edgier" over the years. For example, someone like The Joker goes from a character who was sometimes lethal, but sometimes was also little more than an annoying prankster, to a mass-murdering death god/slasher movie villain pretty much every single time he appears these days. And many other villains suffer the same fate. And as the body count rises, the heroes look worse and worse as an extension. They HAVE to know that, not matter how many times they lock up said villains, the latter WILL escape eventually and the cycle will endlessly repeat itself. So it starts to look like they place their own personal "code," or piece of mind, above the lives/well-being on innocent people.

And the issue with throwing someone like Frank Castle into that world, is that he calls them out on that self-righteousness. He's the guy who goes "this is clearly not working, so to heck with that. I'm just going to shoot them and be done with it, and those people who would have died later on, will still be alive."

He just doesn't fit naturally into superhero comics as they've been traditionally set up. And many writers lack the nuance/creativity to make it work.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#71502: Jun 3rd 2017 at 1:08:11 AM

I don't see any reason to doubt that Tony meant to kill Stane. Tony had already killed multiple terrorists, he knew Stane had tried to kill him twice, he led Stane into the icing trap knowing that nearly killed Tony himself, and the scene where Stane survived and seemingly begged for a second chance was chosen to be cut out of the film. Plus, Tony doesn't have any guilt afterward that Stane was killed. His death was exactly what he intended.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#71503: Jun 3rd 2017 at 1:22:38 AM

And then he became Obadiah Stain.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#71504: Jun 3rd 2017 at 3:36:24 AM

Actually, Jessica's colour is blue, the purple is symbolizing Killgrave's influence entrenching on her.....

I honestly don't see why the Netflix heroes operating under different rules is dissonant. There is a huge difference between being a soldier, a spy or part of a semi-official intervention team, and being some guy who is attacking criminals. The Avengers operating in war-like situations or missions to prevent war-like situation. That is an entirely different scale from walking down the street and fighting crime. There is a reason why there is exactly one Avenger who apparently has a no-kill rule, and that is the one guy who does spend his time swinging through the streets to fight crime.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#71505: Jun 3rd 2017 at 5:59:08 AM

First of all, The Punisher doesn't kill ALL criminals. He kills the worst of the worst, and that's something that the people who actually write him well understand
Nobody is saying that he kills all criminals, but he does kill murderers, no matter if they are reformed or not. That makes a big difference.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#71506: Jun 3rd 2017 at 7:56:42 AM

This is the folly of Frank's mission: he's not out for revenge against one person, but against crime itself. He wants to end crime, but that's never going to happen. There is no single person he can kill.

I would say even ending crime is more ambitious than what Frank wants. There's an old gag from one of the superhero parodies, I want to say "The Tick" but I'm not certain, in which the superhero whines, "I don't want to end crime! I just want to fight it!"

That's Frank. He's a soldier in a war. He doesn't have any real aspirations that his actions will some day lead to a worldwide anti-crime revolution. He's nowhere near ambitious enough or calculating enough to be Light Yagami. He just intends to keep waging his fruitless war until it kills him.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#71507: Jun 3rd 2017 at 7:59:35 AM

The key problem with the Punisher is that he reinforces an idea that already too entrenched in American culture: the idea that society is divided into civilians and criminals, and there's a hard and clear line between them. "Regular people" can commit crimes. Not everyone that ended up in a gang or in the drug trade is a bad person; in some areas, that's just pretty well the only way to protect yourself or find paying work. Not everyone who makes a mistake is evil. And add on to that, there's huge social and economic forces that determine who gets defined as "criminal" - middle-class and rich people, especially if they're white, are less likely to be arrested for the same actions as other people. How many middle-class white kids who smoke weed, or even smoke and sell harder drugs, go to prison, compared to black kids? How many celebrities who get into drugs go to rehab, come back, and have careers, rather than being in prison? How many times have we seen rich and middle-class white guys who commit rape get off with nothing, or with a slap on the wrist? The difference between being defined as a "criminal" and being defined as a regular citizen has as much to do with your money, social status and race as it does with whether you break the law.

(I read a webcomic recently where one of the antagonists was a girl who used Punisher methods on rapists who got away with their crimes; basically all the readers agreed that she was a psychotic serial killer. Why? Because a middle-class white boy at a good school is a citizen, regardless of what he does, while someone involved in organized crime or mugging people for a bit of cash is a criminal. The definition of who's a criminal is not about the magnitude of the crime; it's about the social standing.)

What I liked about Luke Cage was that it let characters like the teens Pop was trying to protect be both criminals and people. In most of American media, when you get defined as a criminal, you stop being a person.

edited 3rd Jun '17 8:00:59 AM by Galadriel

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#71508: Jun 3rd 2017 at 8:02:43 AM

In regards to whether or not the character is strong enough to lead his own show, that's actually something I've been talking about and thinking about for years. The thing about Frank is that he's just not a very interesting lead. He's a completely Static Character. He never grows, never changes, never develops in any way. He's already done all the growing and changing and developing he's ever going to do by the time he sets foot onscreen. A major point of his concept is how unyielding and unchanging he is.

Which doesn't actually mean he can't be the central character of his show. Only that he can't be the protagonist. Punisher stories often surround him with other characters who are meant to be the ones the audience empathizes with. Supporting characters, victims of the week, even the villains themselves are given all the characterization and development that Frank isn't. It's their story more than anything, with Frank being akin to a horror movie monster; an event that happens to the characters we've taken the time to become invested in.

Basically, a Punisher series needs an Ishmael through which Frank's Ahab can be experienced. The best Punisher moments are when the audience can see him honing in on his latest target and instead of cheering or rooting for him, is sitting there going, "He's coming for you, man. Get out of there!"

edited 3rd Jun '17 8:03:51 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#71509: Jun 3rd 2017 at 8:09:05 AM

I honestly don't see why the Netflix heroes operating under different rules is dissonant. There is a huge difference between being a soldier, a spy or part of a semi-official intervention team, and being some guy who is attacking criminals. The Avengers operating in war-like situations or missions to prevent war-like situation. That is an entirely different scale from walking down the street and fighting crime.

As of Age of Ultron, the only difference between the Avengers and Frank is the former are operating on a global scale with more collateral damage.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#71510: Jun 3rd 2017 at 8:21:24 AM

As I recall, in Age of Ultron the Avengers were supposed to have just been investigating the possibility of a Hydra base in Sokovia when Hydra, seeing the Avengers were around, opened fire on them. After that, the Avengers are defending themselves and the nearby civilian populace from a Hydra attack, and they make mention of trying to take Hydra soldiers in alive where possible.

That's kinda . . . completely different from what the Punisher does.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#71511: Jun 3rd 2017 at 8:27:36 AM

I don't remember anything of the sort. The film opens in media res with the Avengers launching a full-scale assault, hitting Hydra fast and hard from multiple directions at once and pressing the advantage until there's no one left to fight back. It's also outright stated that they've been systematically doing this to one Hydra base after another, effectively sweeping through the globe to snuff out the organization wherever it may lie.

They are pretty unapologetically an invading force.

Any claim of "just defending myself" is immediately invalidated when after the imminent threat is resolved, you press onwards in search of more threats to defend yourself against. There is no such thing as premeditated self-defense; the very notion violates the Requirement to Retreat, in which you remove yourself from the situation at the earliest opportunity.

edited 3rd Jun '17 8:29:42 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
ExplosiveLion Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
#71512: Jun 3rd 2017 at 8:59:32 AM

Again, if you invade a foreign country, armed to the teeth, and then obliterate the opposing force, then no, you're not "defending yourself". You clearly went in prepared, if not downright expecting and looking for a fight.

Also, I find it pretty funny that someone mentioned that nobody died in the boat scene of Captain America: Winter Soldier. Cap kicked a dude off the boat, among other things. Not only did it look like it hurt, it looked as if several bones where broken. He also threw his shield to a guy's face. If you seriously pretend that Cap killed nobody that day, then you saw a different movie than me.

And Frank doesn't just kill low-level criminals. At least in the MCU, he kills the absolutely worst of the worst. People that were given second chances plenty of times and still went back to do the shit they were locked up in the first place. Frank sees a problem that is not being fixed, and let's be honest, he has every reason to act on it.

Again, With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility. That includes having to make hard calls. If you'd rather stick with your precious self-righteousness than kill people who need killing in order to preserve live that do matter then you're not a hero, you're a coward and a fool. Some people, specially in fiction, do not deserve to live.

edited 3rd Jun '17 9:10:24 AM by ExplosiveLion

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#71513: Jun 3rd 2017 at 9:24:47 AM

The film opens with the Avengers and Hydra already in pitched battle, but as I recall there's some dialogue where the Avengers mention being surprised by the large Hydra presence there.

As for "Requirement to Retreat": a) it's hardly a universal aspect of self-defense law; many jurisdictions do not have it, and b) you also need to square that with the idea of a "citizen's arrest". At the time of Age of Ultron, Hydra had been exposed as trying to murder vast numbers of people in every nation on Earth, so it's reasonable to assume that they are wanted fugitives in every nation on Earth. So if the Avengers come across a Hydra base, most citizen's arrest laws would say they have the right to apprehend the Hydra members there and hand them over to the authorities. And if the Hydra members choose to attack the Avengers rather than surrender, then the Avengers have the right to defend themselves (note that Baron Strucker, who announced his intention to surrender, was taken in alive).

The Avengers are breaking the law there, but only because they most likely didn't have proper clearance to enter Sokovia and may have been trespassing on private property, and because Tony's suits almost certainly violate various arms control laws.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#71514: Jun 3rd 2017 at 10:08:48 AM

  • Thor: Loki's scepter must be here. Strucker couldn't mount this defense without it. At long last.
  • Romanov: At long last is lasting a little long, boys.
  • Barton: Yeah, I think we lost the element of surprise.

Strucker's forces are mentioned as having fired the first shot, but the Avengers explicitly came here with the intent of breaking through Hydra's forces and reclaiming the scepter, and Barton outright indicates that if Hydra hadn't shot first, the Avengers would have.

EDIT: Also, while there is much that can be debated about "citizen's arrest", one of the foremost aspects is that you are a citizen. No Avenger at this point in time is a citizen of Sokovia. In fact, it's not clear if Sokovia has any beef with Hydra's presence at all. No one is attacking the Hydra base in the name of Sokovian interests. They're Americans here to end an American fight.

"Citizen's arrest" does not extend beyond the borders of your nation, so this entire point is moot.

edited 3rd Jun '17 10:13:28 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#71515: Jun 3rd 2017 at 10:13:17 AM

I mean, it's REALLY hard to say that Hydra doesn't deserve to get their shit kicked in at every opportunity.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#71516: Jun 3rd 2017 at 10:37:00 AM

Maybe. Doesn't mean the way the Avengers did it was legal. Or that you even need them for that particular task

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#71517: Jun 3rd 2017 at 11:21:55 AM

Basically, a Punisher series needs an Ishmael through which Frank's Ahab can be experienced.

This about sums up my concerns with a Punisher show. I hope the showrunner is familiar enough with Punisher to realize this.

To be honest, this is also kind of similar to the reason why I'm iffy on the idea of a Black Widow solo film. I feel like she works better when the audience doesn't know everything she's up to, and she can disappear for periods of time before suddenly reappearing to do something unexpected like impersonate a councilwoman or stun-gun Black Panther. She needs her secrets, and that requires viewpoint characters who aren't privy to all her secrets.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#71518: Jun 3rd 2017 at 11:24:45 AM

[up]Black Windows already have secrets, if anything is time to know them since we know so little about her.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#71519: Jun 3rd 2017 at 11:27:45 AM

Using black windows to hide secrets in your car is illegal, though.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#71520: Jun 3rd 2017 at 11:30:58 AM

As of Age of Ultron, the only difference between the Avengers and Frank is the former are operating on a global scale with more collateral damage.
Once again, as we have pointed out time and again, this is untrue. The Avengers are seeking to protect people. The Punisher is seeking to kill criminals.

It's also outright stated that they've been systematically doing this to one Hydra base after another, effectively sweeping through the globe to snuff out the organization wherever it may lie.
Really? Because I don't remember them stating this at all. I remember them saying something like "This is the last Hydra base" or something, but nothing about how they assaulted all of Hydra (especially since that would contradict Agents of SHIELD).

Barton outright indicates that if Hydra hadn't shot first, the Avengers would have.
Uh, no, there's nothing to indicate the Avengers would have fired first.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#71521: Jun 3rd 2017 at 11:45:39 AM

They are attacking the Hydra base because they are looking for the sceptre (if you go by the movie) and for Strucker (if you have the addition information from Ao S). A Hydra base in which illegal experiments on humans are conducted, during which all test persons except two died.

Also, the guy who Cap kicked from the boat in The Winter soldier is Bartoc, right? Well, he is later seen getting interrogated, and he is perfectly fine.

edited 3rd Jun '17 11:49:35 AM by Swanpride

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#71522: Jun 3rd 2017 at 12:00:23 PM

[up]No, it was a random guard at the beginning, not Batroc, who was up in the bridge at the time.

I find it pretty funny that someone mentioned that nobody died in the boat scene of Captain America: Winter Soldier. Cap kicked a dude off the boat, among other things. Not only did it look like it hurt, it looked as if several bones where broken. He also threw his shield to a guy's face. If you seriously pretend that Cap killed nobody that day, then you saw a different movie than me.

It seems plausible to me that those guards didn't die, because Cap does the same thing to the agents arresting him on the elevator, and they're seen to be fine later, just bruised but still standing. He even gave Batroc a direct punch to the head, and Batroc was back up a minute later. I'm pretty sure the only point where he intentionally kills someone in TWS is during the climax (a grenade aboard the Helicarrier.)

edited 3rd Jun '17 12:01:20 PM by Tuckerscreator

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#71525: Jun 3rd 2017 at 12:25:57 PM

Then how was he able to give Steve so much trouble?


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