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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#71476: Jun 2nd 2017 at 9:04:07 PM

[up][up]those drug dealer are going to kill people soon or their trade does, better let those people die?

....see the Point?

edited 2nd Jun '17 9:04:31 PM by unknowing

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#71477: Jun 2nd 2017 at 9:04:12 PM

[up][up]Interesting point. Let's say that tomorrow there would be a civil war in Mexico. One side is willing to put civilians in harms way, and you don't agree with that. But your government doesn't want to get involved in the situation.

If you had the power, would it thus be okay for you to ignore the wishes of your country, march into the warzone and kill everyone from that side that you can, possibly sparking a larger international incident?

In universe, keep in mind that not respecting sovereign borders even while fighting literal Neo-Nazi criminals was what got the Avengers saddled with the Accords.

It is really just a question of "you either condone people's deaths or you don't?"

edited 2nd Jun '17 9:05:29 PM by KnownUnknown

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#71478: Jun 2nd 2017 at 9:05:17 PM

[up][up]Except there is nobody in any immediate danger. And the drug dealers could have been under investigation themselves and finding them and flipping them could lead to those who manufacture the drugs, who are far more important then the actual small time drug dealers.

Am I the only person here who has seen The Wire?

It is really just a question of "you either condone people's deaths or you don't?"
No, it's not. It's a super complicated question that can't be boiled down to an easy yes-or-no answer. The world is a lot more complicated than that.

edited 2nd Jun '17 9:07:01 PM by alliterator

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#71479: Jun 2nd 2017 at 9:06:28 PM

I haven't seen The Wire, but I will say that as a black man in inner city America - the target audience of that series, as far as I know - the idea that it's justifiable to kill people you think need killing if you can construe it as self defense, even with an explicit intention to engage, makes me uncomfortable.

edited 2nd Jun '17 9:09:12 PM by KnownUnknown

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#71480: Jun 2nd 2017 at 9:08:10 PM

[up][up]problem is that guys like Tony or frank already answer that question and take action towards it.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#71481: Jun 2nd 2017 at 9:09:16 PM

[up][up] And that's why there's a difference between what Iron Man did and what the Punisher did. The audience can see for themselves that Iron Man was actually protecting civilians — you can call his actions going into the warzone right or wrong, but once he's there, he's protecting those people. But the Punisher's actions are a lot more morally gray, because he's killing people who pose no immediate threat except for who they are and that can ultimately lead, basically, to fascism.

Say a murderer was caught, went to jail, and served his time. Once he's let out, Frank wouldn't care, he would kill him anyway, because Frank is basically Rorschach. No compromise.

edited 2nd Jun '17 9:11:37 PM by alliterator

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#71482: Jun 2nd 2017 at 9:13:57 PM

Again, he's protecting people in addition to his stated objective, which is to hunt down the people who got ahold of his tech and used it in ways he doesn't approve - he's an Avenger, not a Defender.

That he saves people in the course of his actions towards that intention neither invalidates nor supplants the fact that that's what he puts on that suit to do, at least not for the purposes of the question at hand. He's out to track down his stolen tech and wipe out whoever stops him from doing so. And also stop them them using it against innocent people. It's not one or the other.

But the question isn't whether he's helping people. It's whether his hunting down of criminals is comparable to the Punisher. And if he's doing both, the best that can give is that he is, but he's also helping people at the same time, which is at best a digression.

We can't just toss out the fact that he's doing so illegally as well, because diving into a warzone on his own is the reason why it's premeditated in the first place.

edited 2nd Jun '17 9:20:28 PM by KnownUnknown

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#71483: Jun 2nd 2017 at 9:20:05 PM

Again, he's protecting people in addition to his stated objective, which is to hunt down the people who got ahold of his tech and used it in ways he doesn't approve
But the second part isn't about killing, it's about removing his tech. He wants to go where they have his tech and destroy it. But he went to Gulmira also because he wanted to help those people, since it was the hometown of Yinsen.

But for the question of whether he's doing the same thing as the Punisher or not, the best that can give its that he is
But he's not premeditately killing people. He's premeditately destroying his own tech, yes, but he's only killing people who are trying to kill or harm others. Saying that he's doing the same as the Punisher is to miss the entire point of his mission.

What separates the two is, again, one of justifiable homicide and the other is first degree murder.

edited 2nd Jun '17 9:22:16 PM by alliterator

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#71484: Jun 2nd 2017 at 9:22:41 PM

But the second part isn't about killing, it's about removing his tech. He wants to go where they have his tech and destroy it.

The intention here is important. Because if he's going to them, even to reclaim something that's his, then killing them when they try to stop him, that's not self defense. It's premeditated murder. And if he's asked and that his answer to why he was out there, which as he states it is, then the whole idea of him doing it to protect others goes out the window.

That the people he's killing are currently in the course of a crime (an international crime no less, which makes it that much more complicated) makes it no less a mission of premediated assault and (if they resist) murder. That he's helping people makes it no less a mission of premeditated assault and (if they resist) murder. If he kills someone in the course of that, it's not "assault, but then they died." It's premeditated murder.

Like I said, in the first movie he protects others in addition to avenging himself on the people who hurt him. He not uninvested in protection or anything, but that also not what gets him out of the bed in the morning. We actually see Tony's state of mind while doing this, and the comparison becomes clearer. There is only the next mission, indeed.

To note, realizing that he should be about protection but not yet being sure how to do that is at the center of his character arc post-Ultron and in Civil War, and in light of his temperament in his own prior movies it's precisely what makes his story in that movie that much more powerful, imo.

But getting back to the original point of the conversation, the films are still are okay with the way he operated, and the issue with Punisher is not oversight (Daredevil doesn't have it either). In the movies, as long as you're helping people, that's okay. I want to get us away from the idea that this all about whether Tony himself is immoral for doing these things - by real world standards he would be, but he's a fictional character in a world that relies on looser morals. It's about whether Punisher's treatment and Daredevil's morality is inconsistent with the way the rest of that world functions. In short, narrative consistency.

Hell, we haven't even gotten into how dissonant Matt's no kill rule (and the general lack of killing from the other Netflix heroes) is in the first place from the rest of the MCU yet. And that's an important part of it too: Matt's perspective drives his series, and that perspective is one not seen in the rest of the universe, yet it's still portrayed as the moral high ground. At least, when the series itself cares about it vs action - a common criticism with the second season is that the series tries to present him as right but then turns around and ignores their own narrative. Most of his allies don't even listen to him and kill whoever they want to, while if the plot wants him to his ignores it because it gets the job done, making him look like a twit.

edited 2nd Jun '17 9:59:36 PM by KnownUnknown

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#71485: Jun 2nd 2017 at 9:33:18 PM

I think you're confusing Matt and Danny's names.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#71486: Jun 2nd 2017 at 9:36:26 PM

Boy is my face red.

Get it? Red? Like daredevil's mask?

...

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#71487: Jun 2nd 2017 at 9:37:05 PM

Danny might be green with envy at the attention you're giving Matt now, though.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#71488: Jun 2nd 2017 at 9:38:17 PM

I would say "Luke is staying out if it, because he's yellow," but I fear what Power Man would do if I called him a coward.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#71489: Jun 2nd 2017 at 9:43:05 PM

And Jessica is... uh... purple.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#71490: Jun 2nd 2017 at 9:45:52 PM

Jessica Jones...FNAF....is just me or people are racist against purple people?tongue

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#71491: Jun 2nd 2017 at 9:53:36 PM

Well, there is a cycloptic flying monster that specifically targets purple people to eat. People don't even hate it. Gave it a damn music career.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#71493: Jun 2nd 2017 at 10:01:35 PM

...

I say, they both suck.

Let Thanos beat them up.

For the record, I'm talking about Frank and Tony, since this argument is going nowhere.

One Strip! One Strip!
ExplosiveLion Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
#71494: Jun 2nd 2017 at 11:38:17 PM

I live in a country with the same problems and I have personally seen strife and death at the hands of organized crime, including having my own brother and my father being shot by this kind of person. And I stand by what I've said as well. No country needs a Punisher.

Huh. Seems like we have had our fair share of organized crime.

My uncle was kidnapped and shot dead by some of these people when his family was unable to meet their demands. Police, well, they were colluded with these people, so they offered no help. I guess that in itself made me think as I do right now.

Funny how, in spite of our similar experiences, we think so differently. Guess that makes me the Punisher to your Daredevil. I offer my sympathies, and my heart goes to you and your relatives. Glad they are ok. I really am.

But he's not premeditately killing people. He's premeditately destroying his own tech, yes, but he's only killing people who are trying to kill or harm others. Saying that he's doing the same as the Punisher is to miss the entire point of his mission.

The thing is, when you go armed to the teeth into a warzone, it becomes pretty clear that you're not there to act all peaceful. As soon as he arrived, he started busting heads; he knew what he was going to kill people even before he arrived. His plan was to destroy the smuggled weapons and then make the bastards pay for what they did; not only to him, but to the people around him.

Frank, on the other hand, works on the logic that life has teached him the hard way. He saw a world where criminals often go scot-free, and if they are jailed, some (most, maybe) of them go back to their old ways. He can't stand it, so he takes no chances. Redeemed or not, he sees every criminal the same.

His own monologue to Daredevil, the whole "you're a half measure" thing. Remember Breaking Bad? Mike mentioned to Walt that he dealt with a man who had beated his wife repeatedly when he was a cop. It was a regular thing. One day, he became tired of him, so he took him to the desert and then threatened to kill him if he ever did it again. Not long after, they got another call. The man had murdered his wife.

Mike then saw it as his biggest mistake. He used a half-measure to something that needed a full-measure. He then vowed he'd never make the same mistake again.

That's Frank. Frank is a man that takes no chances, that takes no half-measures. If he ever gives a criminal the benefit of the doubt, then he's risking that same guy killing/kindapping/whatever again. And it'd be on him, because he didn't stop him when he could.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#71495: Jun 2nd 2017 at 11:53:20 PM

Frank's "you're a half measure" speech isn't supposed to be seen as a good thing, because it's also wrong. Not every criminal stays a criminal. Not every wife beater turns into a murderer. And even if you kill one or two or ten or a hundred criminals, it won't stop crime itself. This is the folly of Frank's mission: he's not out for revenge against one person, but against crime itself. He wants to end crime, but that's never going to happen. There is no single person he can kill.

Tony may go into countries and kill, but, again, he only does so to protect. He doesn't care about stopping all terrorism, because he knows that's impossible. He wants his tech and he wants to protect people. Frank doesn't care. Frank doesn't care about anything except killing more criminals. And, eventually, he will end up killing an innocent person, just like the comic book Frank Castle did. And he'll just...move on and continue doing what he's doing.

And nothing will change.

edited 2nd Jun '17 11:54:04 PM by alliterator

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#71496: Jun 2nd 2017 at 11:55:56 PM

Well technically, nothing changes because status quo is a bitch that affects every comic book series every; Frank isn't the only one who's put in a scenario where it looks like he'd learn a lesson, only to remain the same a year later.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#71497: Jun 2nd 2017 at 11:58:29 PM

No, nothing changes because killing one or a hundred criminals won't stop crime itself.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#71498: Jun 3rd 2017 at 12:07:18 AM

That and because there's no story if crime is gone completely; if you kill off every big name villain in a company like DC and Marvel, then what? You're stuck either coming up with characters that have the possibility of nobody caring about, or you use C-list villains that...no one cares about. Ultimately, DC and Marvel are companies that need to make a profit, and the best way to make said profit is to keep villains in play that are guaranteed to make them money, even though in-universe they're so horrible they should have been killed off a thousand times over at this point.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#71499: Jun 3rd 2017 at 12:13:02 AM

"Tony may go into countries and kill, but, again, he only does so to protect. He doesn't care about stopping all terrorism, because he knows that's impossible. He wants his tech and he wants to protect people."

Tony build Ultron, an armour to the work that eventually become is stright jacket, that is pretty much ending crime but worst since it go into a global scale, he can babble "protection" all the damn time he want but that is pretty risky thing in itself.

Also sure, tony want to help...by murder other people, he go int a zone were he was going to kill and well...kill.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#71500: Jun 3rd 2017 at 12:45:26 AM

There are MANY heinous criminals in Real Life who reform into helpful and productive members of society through the legal system, and many more who would reform if the legal system was better. Frank is the kind of person who'd go after those former criminals based on their past actions, ignoring that they regret those actions, have already served a suitable punishment decided by the law, and have no intention of hurting anyone else ever again.

Additionally, Punisher mercilessly slaughtering all criminals above an arbitrary baseline of heinousness of crime robs them of their future as well as any chance to ever repent and reform in the future. Criminals are still people, and many of them hate the position they're in and they want out of their life of crime.


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