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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#71351: Jun 1st 2017 at 7:24:25 PM

I mean, I haven't really had a problem with Finn's fight scenes.

My various fanfics.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#71352: Jun 1st 2017 at 7:33:36 PM

He moves so stiff and awkwardly in them that it's completely unconvincing. It's like he's barely even trying to land any blows when he fights. There's no oomph or force in his fighting, it's just him going through the motions because he was never prepped enough for the fights. Literally, Finn Jones didn't have enough preparation for his fights because Marvel wanted the show out as fast as possible to set up Defenders.

Plus, the editing was evidently done by somebody who watched Suicide Squad's climax and thought "Hey, let's make it even worse than that!". There's one scene with over fifty fucking cuts in it (which I think you've already seen, I believe it was in Episode 3), and I felt nauseated after seeing it.

edited 1st Jun '17 7:34:20 PM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#71353: Jun 1st 2017 at 7:37:34 PM

I thought Finn's fighting and acting were fine. Iron Fist isn't perfect, but it is really good. Better than Daredevil Season 2, at least.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#71354: Jun 1st 2017 at 7:40:53 PM

Oh god no, it's far worse. At least Season 2 of Daredevil had a semblance of a plot. Iron Fist fucking pinballs everywhere and people do stupid shit because "the plot demands it".

edited 1st Jun '17 7:42:05 PM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
ExplosiveLion Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
#71355: Jun 1st 2017 at 8:57:49 PM

Ok, you hate Iron Fist, we get it already.

It also makes me wonder why aren't we taking the Defenders discussions to their respective thread. It kind of derails this thread with the very poralizing views every single one of us have about the Netflix shows. But hey, whatever.

Anyway, back to the Punisher topic.

The movies mostly avoid this particular issue because the Avengers are not going after street-level criminals, they're going after Hydra and supervillains. Several movies (Iron Man, Civil War) raise issues around international intervention and national sovereignty, but that's a quite different set of ethical and political issues than people running around torturing or murdering anyone they think is a criminal.

Yup. At the end of the day, it is kind of a given that the Avengers and company do kill some bad guys in the process of saving the day. The movies haven't really touched upon that, because, honestly, it's kind of an hypocritical characteristic in heroes.

I can get Daredevil's motives to not kill, since he is a Christian and a lawyer. I don't think it's very christian-like to beat the shit out of criminals (nor lawful for that matter), but hey, whatever. Jessica just doesn't strike me as the kind of hero that would downright beat people up (not if she was a hero, which she's not at the moment), so the no-kill policy kind of comes with that.

But when done wrong, you get characters like Batman whose excuse is "if I do it then I'm no different". Yeah, no, you idiot, if you'd do it you wouldn't have to deal with one of your psycho enemies diminishing Gotham's population every odd weekend.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#71356: Jun 1st 2017 at 9:05:35 PM

I'll give Iron Fist something positive: Ward gets the best arc in the entire show. I hated him at first but by the end of it I wound up loving him as a character. Hell, the stretch from Episodes 6 through 8 that had a slight uptick in quality were when Ward's arc with his dad was getting really good.

edited 1st Jun '17 9:06:41 PM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#71357: Jun 1st 2017 at 9:11:08 PM

[up][up]in the case of Batman have to do more with the rules bending so he have to kill the joker but decide no too because of reason, at léast something Bv S did right was to get what "letting himself go" actually means(going after súperman because is personal reasons)

And adric: well I havent seen iron first but I fine daredevil fighting Been....awkard, Matt look like street fighter rather than some weird Marcial fighter, is hard to think he beat nobu.

[up]another problem with no seen iron first is that I get really confuse when people talk about ward

edited 1st Jun '17 9:12:26 PM by unknowing

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#71358: Jun 1st 2017 at 9:18:17 PM

Except Matt's been shown repeatedly that he can actually put up a fight. The hallway fight from Season 1 is pretty solid proof of Matt being a solid fighter. Danny's fighting style is limp. And I'd like to add, the editing of these fights goes a long way to show that. The editing for a fight contributes a lot to how it's read by the viewer. In Iron Fist, I barely fucking know what's going on with the fights because of the awful editing. In Daredevil, I can tell what happens because they're not putting fifty-something cuts in each fight. Additionally (and I'm still pissed that Scott Buck did this), Iron Fist doesn't introduce the damn costume, which would've helped with hiding stunt doubled like they did with Daredevil.

As for the two Wards, how about this: We call the one from Agents of SHIELD Last Name Ward and the one from Iron Fist First Name Ward to differentiate them or something. Or "Agent Douchebag Ward" and "Gordon Gecko Ward" or something.

edited 1st Jun '17 9:19:52 PM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#71359: Jun 1st 2017 at 9:46:27 PM

Why don't we just call them by their full names, in that case? Ward Meachum, Grant Ward.

Daredevil's usually fighting injured and taking on a dozen or more guys at the same time, so his fights look more visceral and impressive because they feel like things that would be hard enough to pull off if he weren't half-dead already. And as much as heightened senses are the power he's known for, it's really being the Man Without Fear that makes him such a threat, the Heroic Willpower, that willingness to sacrifice his body and do whatever it takes, up to and including his own death, to stop people like Wilson Fisk and his men. It's his ideology.

Daredevil's No Kill Code is the same as Batman's, Catholicism is just a red herring. It's not the killing itself that would put them over the edge, it's the willingness to kill, it's having that as an option. It's not that Batman would become the Joker if he killed, it's that they'd basically slide into being the Punisher, and it'd be too easy to make that choice and too hard not to make it. The problem for all of the true vigilante superheroes is that there's already far too little difference between them and the people they fight as it is— if you use violence as your first resort, to get what you want, saying that you're doing it for the right reasons can very easily become nothing more than a hollow excuse.

edited 2nd Jun '17 12:21:11 AM by Unsung

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#71360: Jun 1st 2017 at 10:07:03 PM

I think that's part of why I like Matt more than Danny. As much as Matt can come off as an ineffective jackass, he legitimately wants to make a difference in his home and he'll fight for it. He's fighting the bad guys because he wants to protect his city and his friends. Danny was raised by the monks of K'un L'un to fight the Hand, he's been molded into a weapon. Now, I'll grant them that he decided to fuck off from K'un L'un and take his fight to the Hand in NYC, but at the same time a good part of his motivation is because of being raised as what's essentially a child soldier and being told that the Hand are bad. I mean, he's not wrong to fight the Hand, but his motivation just doesn't resonate as well with me as it does with Matt.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#71361: Jun 1st 2017 at 10:51:05 PM

The reason heroes don't kill villains is because without them the story would end. The "I'll be no different" is the red herring. No genre loves its status quo more than superheroes.

Frankly, why movies and tv shows with an eventual ending follow this inane rule I'll never know.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#71362: Jun 1st 2017 at 11:13:15 PM

Because setting a precedent where even the most heroic among us can't win without resorting to killing makes for a pretty bleak worldview? Honestly, most heroes do kill, if pressed, so what I don't get is why some fans are so determined to have it so every character must be willing to kill.

Taking a human life is a big deal. It's not as easy or simple as movies and TV shows typically make it out to be, and it takes a toll on a person. Even if you're in a war, even if someone is trying to kill you, it's not an easy thing for most people to simply snuff out a life. Part of basic training as a soldier is breaking now that innate resistance which most people have to killing— albeit some less than others, and some more.

Daredevil and Jessica Jones do a pretty good job of showing someone wrestling with that reluctance. Beyond their spoken reasons for not killing, and those reasons may still be true, but past that, on a primal level, there's just a simple desire not to kill anyone. Even if the person in question 'deserves it', on an intellectual level.

Matt's talks with Father Lantom do a great job of breaking this down, I thought. We could've used another couple of those in S2. Paraphrased: are you looking for a reason to kill this man? Or are you actually looking for a reason not to?

edited 2nd Jun '17 12:24:47 AM by Unsung

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#71363: Jun 1st 2017 at 11:17:49 PM

I think you and me have a rather different view of what "bleak" means. When even Disney protagonists are wasting their enemies with nary a care, I think it's safe to say killing a bad guy is not the worst thing a hero can do. There's always stuff like torture and whatever else the writer can dream up. Killing in self defense or defense of others is actually acceptable in real life. Why not in fiction?

Torture's a big deal too. It's rarely treated that way in fiction. It's one thing to acknowledge the toll killing takes on a person. It's another to equate all killing, regardless of circumstances, with cold blooded murder. But superheroes were never know for nuance now where they?

edited 1st Jun '17 11:20:21 PM by windleopard

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#71365: Jun 1st 2017 at 11:26:06 PM

[up]That.

Killing in self defense is all well and good, but wounding in self defense is valid as well. The writers don't have to escalate things to the point where killing is the only option. I'm not saying they can never do that in storytelling, and in a lot of stories it works and I don't have a problem with it, but not every story has to be about that, and I don't see what's so terrible about wanting some heroes who find another way of dealing with their enemies.

If the only possible way to ever truly be considered victorious is to kill everyone who opposes you— that's what's bleak.

edited 1st Jun '17 11:28:52 PM by Unsung

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#71366: Jun 1st 2017 at 11:27:19 PM

And if writers don't want their heroes to kill them don't do entire stories where killing the bad guy is the only sane option but the hero refuses because they care more about their arbitrary high horse than saving lives. Nobody's forcing them to do these stories

[up][up] there are somethings worse than death

edited 1st Jun '17 11:29:03 PM by windleopard

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#71367: Jun 1st 2017 at 11:29:55 PM

"Honestly, most heroes do kill, if pressed"

if pressed? people tend to forget that in movie verse hero kill ALL the damn time, is a bit of a joke in DC thread that almost all modern movies batman have killed(including batman forever were he did lecture robin about not killing two faces it...only to kill him or the "not going to save you" ) and even marvel have got pretty damn bad about it(really do Scott REALLY need to kill yellowjacket?)

hell saving Zemo was been treat as big deal since it break tradition to kill him(on the other hand, having him alive would be weird consider is motivation) that show you how unsual not killing is.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#71368: Jun 1st 2017 at 11:33:52 PM

We've had this discussion before. I'm not arguing about the in-universe logic. I would in fact prefer they write stories where that isn't the only sane option, for the most part. But the logical, 'sane', purely utilitarian reason to do something isn't the only one that matters. There are fates worth than death, and there are in fact principles worth dying for.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#71369: Jun 1st 2017 at 11:35:16 PM

The Ward question is easy....simple "Ward" is Ward Meachum, and Grant Ward has another version of his name for each incarnation of him anyway at this point, From Hydra Ward over Squidward to Frame Ward.

Concerning the Punisher: Yes, the Avengers have killed - in War zones or war like situations. That is way different from gunning down random civilians. The Defenders all try to work with the law, but they are dealing with enemies who are able to rig the system, so they do some really shady stuff (and count me in as hating how Daredevil is normalizing torture). The Punisher doesn't belief in the system at all, he thinks that he has the right to be judge, jury and executioner. In a political environment in which people take a trip to New York in order to kill the next black person they see because they feel that this is their right/that they defend the state in doing so, the Punisher is one of the worst characters to lead a show, even as an anti-hero. He works way better as antagonist who can be helpful once in a while.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#71370: Jun 1st 2017 at 11:48:24 PM

[up][up]I know but the point is the cat is out of the water, they have kill vilian even in the rare ocasion when is not need it and nobody bat an eye(Antman killing yellowjacket wasnt really necesary since neither of them are trained fighters) it just come as hero having and issue.

[up]damn, ward really have a issue leaving the damn show, cut one ward down, two more will take is place.

Even them they are chararter who are not avenger and kill: Scott kill yellowjacket and Strange dosent seen face after dormammu take is follower to the dark dimension and the least we said about the scarlet unabomber, the better.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#71371: Jun 1st 2017 at 11:55:28 PM

Lagos and Sokovia weren't war zones until the Avengers made them that way. They do the exact same thing as the Punisher but on a global scale with more collateral damage and a belief they are above the law. If you are in defiance of the system you, by definition, do not believe in it.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#71372: Jun 2nd 2017 at 12:02:19 AM

Or you simply think it's flawed. And a flawed system can still be repaired.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#71373: Jun 2nd 2017 at 12:06:06 AM

Viewing something as flawed is pretty much saying it doesn't work. And if these guys wanted fix it, they'd work within it not outside of it.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#71374: Jun 2nd 2017 at 12:07:54 AM

That's an incredibly limited, or at least limiting, way of looking at things.

edited 2nd Jun '17 12:08:27 AM by Unsung

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#71375: Jun 2nd 2017 at 12:11:37 AM

[up]but is the one super use it, the system cant do anything against this thread so some people decide to take charge themselves.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

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