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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#71326: May 30th 2017 at 10:43:54 AM

Exactly why I don't get this argument about reconnection at all, unless you think that "Asian" is one culture. The show actually does a pretty good job showing that it isn't. The only upside of making him Asian are brownie points for representation, but it also takes away a lot from the character.

I actually think that showing how clueless Danny approached becoming the Iron Fist is a way better solution. Danny basically just wanted the coolest job, with no understanding of the meaning behind it...(though it does beg the question why he was chosen nevertheless).

ExplosiveLion Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
#71327: May 30th 2017 at 10:44:13 AM

[up][up] I just laughed like crazy at the Narnia thing.

edited 30th May '17 10:44:33 AM by ExplosiveLion

Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#71328: May 30th 2017 at 10:45:25 AM

[up][up]Killing a dragon is awesome but the character interviews were lacking.

RAlexa21th Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer from California (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I <3 love!
ComicFan Since: Sep, 2016
#71330: Jun 1st 2017 at 12:14:05 PM

Punisher comes out in November[1]. Thor and Black Panther stuff during D23[2]

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#71331: Jun 1st 2017 at 1:05:42 PM

I am still sore that punisher will air before Jessica Jones. It's not fair!

jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#71332: Jun 1st 2017 at 2:43:28 PM

Jessica Jones is still my favourite of the Marvel/Netflix shows. Not necessarily the best but the only one I've seen more than once.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#71333: Jun 1st 2017 at 2:45:11 PM

I am still sore Punisher will air at all.

This is a bad idea. And this coming from someone who enjoys Punisher comics.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#71334: Jun 1st 2017 at 2:47:29 PM

In a world where cops and civilians alike are willing to gun down non-white adults and even kids based on the assumption that they're criminals .... yeah, a Punisher show is a really, really bad idea.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#71335: Jun 1st 2017 at 2:59:48 PM

[up][up] I agree, but I think they have to try to really get it....

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#71336: Jun 1st 2017 at 3:06:14 PM

[up][up]By this logic, we shouldn't watch superhero shows and movies at all. What Frank does is really no more amoral than actual vigilantes. Frank just gets called out on it more.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#71337: Jun 1st 2017 at 3:19:58 PM

Adapting the Punisher is a nightmare from literally every angle.

In the comics, the character has little to no supporting cast to speak of (Soap and Microchip, tops), so he often spends entire issues without sharing a word of dialogue to anyone, and the audience only knows what he's thinking because we have thought bubbles that monologue his mental ramblings to us. This works fine for a comic, but in a cinematic perspective this constant monologuing could wear really thin rather fast.

Most writers nowadays are at least obliquely aware of the saturn-sized Unfortunate Implications of the character, so a lot of them (read: Garth Ennis) play him as a extremely dark figure, a nihilistic sociopath who lives for bloodshed with occasional flashes of humanity but who's generally only slightly less terrible than the people he's killing. A lot of Punisher stories end up being more of an exploration on the depths of Castle'a demented mind in this eternal war against crime rather than a celebration of his vigilantism. This is psychologically interesting but it's also relentlessly grim, so it would probably lead to Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy in a tv show (Hell it already leads to Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy in the comic, as The Handle can attest).

So this leads to a massive problem: The netflix show will either have to make him heroic to ease on the grimdark (and flare up the worst Unfortunate Implications of the entire marvel universe), or make him as sociopathic as his Ennis-self, which will produce a very hard to digest but perhaps psychologically interesting show. It's a choice of evils, and I'm not sure I trust Netflix to pick the lesser one (option B).

[up] Not really, no. Superheroes often act in a manner somewhat like a unlicensed cop. They beat up criminals (and depending on the hero, kill them if there's no other choice) but they respect the justice system, in a sense: they let the actual police and the justice system deal wih hi mafter he's aprehended.

That's not what the Punisher does. The Punisher's goal is not to stop crime. It's to wipe it out. Lethal force is not his last resort, it's his first, last and only resort.

edited 1st Jun '17 3:23:09 PM by Gaon

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#71338: Jun 1st 2017 at 3:37:54 PM

they let the actual police and the justice system deal wih hi mafter he's aprehended.

Like how Matt let the system deal with that dude he defended in court and then assaulted later on as Daredevil? Superheroes, by their very nature, have no respect for the law.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#71339: Jun 1st 2017 at 3:44:49 PM

Their level of respect is low and they bend rules, but I'm sure you can appreciate the difference between beating up people and leaving them for the police and deciding to conduct a genocidal campaign against anyone who has mildly breached the law, including pickpockets in many occasions.

For that matter, Matt's interference as lawyer of Heely is more an argument in favor of him. He specifically interferes to give Heely a fair trial even thought he's guilty (his closing speech observes there's no actual evidence against him, despite the fact he's guilty, so he better walk). Which shows some level of respect for the justice system despite his frequent disrespect (also things like letting the police take credit for things he did solely to restore people's faiths on the police itself).

edited 1st Jun '17 3:46:41 PM by Gaon

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#71340: Jun 1st 2017 at 4:16:08 PM

I watched an LP of the Punisher 2005 videogame. I hope the show is as close to that as possible.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#71341: Jun 1st 2017 at 4:24:46 PM

Given how, up until Civil War, Tony Stark was characterized as "rich and powerful enough to kill whoever he thinks needs killing, protocol and government be damned" in the films, there is something of a point to that.

On the other hand, that sort of thing feels nastier on a more everyday, street level than it does on the grand scale level that the Avengers are operating on - one of the ways even villains tend to be escapism in comic books is in the way they're larger than life rather than the everyday people that make up most crime in our world - Frank generally doesn't have that distinction, with many of his stories being - intentionally - uncomfortably true to life.

One thing that I'm disappointed that Daredevil Season 2 implied but didn't really follow up on was the fact that Frank's rampage was throwing the city into disarray and may very well have made life worse for people as the mob families scrambled to consolidate their power and fight back. Daredevil faces him on entirely moralistic grounds, which - while it was interesting - felt like a waste to give Frank more ground.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#71342: Jun 1st 2017 at 5:51:02 PM

[up]]but it get weird because compare to other, the punisher is reckless sure but he didnt level sokovia, brainwashed hulk or colaboraré with someone who built a huge underwater prision, the scale were superhéro opérate make their folly more damming

edited 1st Jun '17 6:07:07 PM by unknowing

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
ExplosiveLion Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
#71343: Jun 1st 2017 at 6:38:45 PM

Let's not pretend that Tony and company have never killed bad guys. I mean, I can recall at least two times that Steve threw people from an aircraft to their dooms, Tony fired nails to a guys chest (and shot a bunch of terrorists in the head), Thor... I mean, if Thor hits you, you're pretty much done, and I think mentioning Hulk would be stating the obvious. If anything, of all Marvel superheroes across movies and TV, I can count about five who haven't explicitly killed anyone on-screen.

Don't pretend as if Punisher is the only one outright breaking the law on a consistent basis. Yes, his methods, ideals, goals and motivation are really fucked up, but on paper, they're all the same. Frank just happens to be more brutal about it.

edited 1st Jun '17 6:41:18 PM by ExplosiveLion

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#71344: Jun 1st 2017 at 6:46:47 PM

So I think I'm on either episode... four or five? Whichever is the one where Ward pulls an Evil Cannot Comprehend Good and thinks telling a reporter that Danny pushed for Rand to sell a drug for the company at cost because it would be cheaper for consumers will make Danny look bad.

Y'know, when people talk about the show being tone deaf to race, they fail to mention that Colleen beats up like, three of the most mongoloid white dudes ever put on television, including beating up two of them at the same time. She's clearly very good at kung fu. Just not as good as the protagonist. Because he's the protagonist.

My various fanfics.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#71345: Jun 1st 2017 at 6:52:06 PM

Dude. Come on. You just had an argument about this 2 days ago.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#71346: Jun 1st 2017 at 6:53:18 PM

Mongoloid

noun

A. a person belonging to the division of humankind including the indigenous peoples of eastern Asia, Southeast Asia, and the Arctic region of North America.

B. a person with Down syndrome.

The only race-related meaning of mongoloid is explicitly NOT referring to white people. You know, since the word originates from the Mongols.

ExplosiveLion Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
#71347: Jun 1st 2017 at 6:54:01 PM

I don't know about that anymore. I rewatched some parts of Iron Fist and... it really only strikes me as if he's any better than her in the first or so episodes, when she has no reason to go all out. I think that she's only slightly below Danny, but much better with weapons than him.

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#71348: Jun 1st 2017 at 6:54:25 PM

Okay, my mistake. Used the wrong word. Should've gone with neanderthal.

My various fanfics.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#71349: Jun 1st 2017 at 7:17:38 PM

Gonna be blunt: Finn Jones can't fight worth a damn, so why should I buy it that Danny deserves being the Iron Fist when they just tell me instead of showing me?

And yes, mongoloid is kind of an insulting term. It's what people used before they used the R-word to refer to people with Down's Syndrome.

edited 1st Jun '17 7:18:17 PM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#71350: Jun 1st 2017 at 7:24:11 PM

Arguably, much traditional superhero media does have serious issues, to a greater or lesser extent; the Punisher's just one of the most glaring. (I've been restraining myself from comments about how maybe making a narcissistic sexist billionaire Marvel's flagship hero had some unintended political consequences.)

Daredevil in Season 1 was okay with putting a guy in a permanent coma, and the difference between that and killing is kind of splitting hairs. And the normalization of torture in Daredevil disturbs me deeply, and is a big part of why it's one of my least favourite Marvel shows. (It's particularly bad because of the premise that his lie detection works by listening to someone's heartbeat. If someone's terrified or in pain, their heart's going to be racing regardless of the veracity of their statements; if they were otherwise calm, them an elevated heart rate could plausibly - within the rules of comic-book science - indicate lying.)

The movies mostly avoid this particular issue because the Avengers are not going after street-level criminals, they're going after Hydra and supervillains. Several movies (Iron Man, Civil War) raise issues around international intervention and national sovereignty, but that's a quite different set of ethical and political issues than people running around torturing or murdering anyone they think is a criminal.

edited 1st Jun '17 7:25:55 PM by Galadriel


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