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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

ExplosiveLion Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
#71276: May 29th 2017 at 8:05:34 PM

Again, if he had been latino, hindu, black or jewish this conversation wouldn't be happening. So yeah, we're making this entirely about his skin colour while disregarding the in-story justifications of why is he the Iron Fist.

And it's not like the show presented him as this flawless white saviour of mankind. One character flat out says that he's "the worst Iron Fist ever" (or something to that effect). In no point the show even entertains the idea that he's better because he's white. He's better because he's better, period.

Also, there's some destiny and The Chosen One bullshit in play, too, so there's that.

edited 29th May '17 8:06:42 PM by ExplosiveLion

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#71277: May 29th 2017 at 8:17:02 PM

And it's stupid that the Mighty Whitey here is "better" than everyone else (air quotes because his fighting is awful). And if he's so bad, why the hell is he the Iron Fist? I wouldn't let him lead a damn dojo, I'd throw his ass out.

It's impossible to avoid anything about race here when the show is so tone deaf about it. The in-story reasons are bullshit and so are the out of story reasons. The entire show was just Marvel rushing it out and hiring an idiot who doesn't know how to run a show properly so that they could get the Defenders ready, and it shows.

edited 29th May '17 8:19:56 PM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#71278: May 29th 2017 at 8:19:11 PM

Again, if he had been latino, hindu, black or jewish this conversation wouldn't be happening.
Well...yeah. That's kind of the point. There is no history of black or latinx people being better than white people. There is only a racist trope that establishes a white person as better at a foreign culture that members of that foreign culture.

The trope is called Mighty Whitey for a reason. Emphasis on whitey. If they had changed Danny's race, there wouldn't have been so much Unfortunate Implications.

And while you could say that there is a lot of anti-white racism in foreign countries, this show was definitely made and takes place in America, a place where there has been a long, long history of racism by white people against people of color.

So yeah, we're making this entirely about his skin colour while disregarding the in-story justifications of why is he the Iron Fist.
What are the justifications, though? Why is he the Iron Fist instead of Davos? The only justification we ever get was that Danny "wanted" it and that's all.

edited 29th May '17 8:21:03 PM by alliterator

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#71279: May 29th 2017 at 8:20:51 PM

Wait, is this argument about how criticizing Danny is racist towards white people or something?

This is getting confusing.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#71280: May 29th 2017 at 8:21:49 PM

Explosive Lion said that if Danny was another race, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

To which I should have replied: yes, exactly.

edited 29th May '17 8:22:08 PM by alliterator

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#71281: May 29th 2017 at 8:22:29 PM

I mean, no shit. It wouldn't have hit a shit load of unfortunate implications.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#71282: May 29th 2017 at 8:28:49 PM

The conflict about race isn't about the show being deliberately racist, it's about raising awareness. I'd mind the Mighty Whitey elements inherent to Iron Fist a lot less here if the show wasn't so determined to simply gloss over them, if they showed a little more self-awareness and greater specificity regarding Asian culture, and tackled the realities of marginalization head on rather than just using kung fu mysticism as a set of props. I'll be honest, if you told me this show was going to deal with homelessness, mental illness, corporate responsibility, and what it's like to be an immigrant, foreigner,mentally ill person, or in any way displaced or other, I would've been pretty excited about that, if it reached the same levels as the other Netflix MCU shows. I just don't think it ever quite did.

You can feel the love for New York City in Daredevil or Luke Cage. You can tell, especially, that the subject matter is near and dear to the writers' heart in Jessica Jones, that it's been given a lot of thought. Iron Fist just feels kind of tossed off and workmanlike. Which might be fine if it was just coming out as a standalone work, but considering the company it keeps, and the moment in time when it's coming out, a little more of that self-awareness would've gone a long way.

edited 29th May '17 8:42:08 PM by Unsung

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#71283: May 29th 2017 at 8:34:05 PM

The entire show was a toss off made only to set up Defenders.

edited 29th May '17 8:34:24 PM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#71284: May 29th 2017 at 8:38:50 PM

I mean, it's pretty clear that Marvel couldn't find a showrunner that really wanted to do the show, like they had with Jessica Jones and Luke Cage. In fact, Iron Fist had been scheduled to air before Luke Cage, but they switched it around because they had a showrunner for Luke Cage long before they had one for Iron Fist.

Honestly, I think the show wouldn't have been as "meh" as it was if they had taken a little bit more time in writing, directing, and editing it. Instead of releasing it March, they should have waited until May (perhaps right after Agents of SHIELD ended), which might have given them more time to smooth out the bad parts and make the entire show stronger.

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#71285: May 29th 2017 at 8:43:30 PM

I didn't realize me liking a thing caused a brouhaha.

My various fanfics.
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#71286: May 29th 2017 at 8:52:18 PM

Eh, it was more about what Explosive said. You liking it isn't a problem.

ExplosiveLion Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
#71287: May 29th 2017 at 9:25:22 PM

Wait, is this argument about how criticizing Danny is racist towards white people or something?

No, this is about me disagreeing with people classifying Danny as a Mighty Whitey character when he doesn't fit the trope. He's barely better than Colleen, pretty much on the same ground as Davos, he was chosen to be the Iron Fist in spite (and not because, at least not as far as we know) of his race (and some destiny, it seems). He's shown as an incompetent fool who rushes at his problems with the subtlety of a hammer. How is he Mighty Whitey?

The conflict about race isn't about the show being deliberately racist, it's about raising awareness. I'd mind the Mighty Whitey elements inherent to Iron Fist a lot less here if the show wasn't so determined to simply gloss over them, if they showed a little more self-awareness and greater specificity regarding Asian culture, and tackled the realities of marginalization head on rather than just using kung fu mysticism as a set of props. I'll be honest, if you told me this show was going to deal with homelessness, mental illness, corporate responsibility, and what it's like to be an immigrant, foreigner,mentally ill person, or in any way displaced or other, I would've been pretty excited about that, if it reached the same levels as the other Netflix MCU shows. I just don't think it ever quite did.

Yeah, ok, I'll give you that. Iron Fist suffers from following Luke Cage and Jessica Jones, both of which tackled complicated themes (with varying degrees of success, of course). Iron Fist did not, at least not successfully. In any case, that's not what I'm arguing about. I'm not denying that Iron Fist had some problems with their handling of racial issues (because that's clear as day). I'm only disagreeing that he's the problem.

As I've said, I get every single complaint about Iron Fist. Pacing, editing, handling of racial issues, fighting scenes, dubious acting... This one? It just strikes me as people getting too offended with a character in particular.

I'm not defending white people in general, I'm defending Danny in particular. Just so we're clear.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#71288: May 29th 2017 at 9:29:18 PM

Except he is an idiot who rushes into his problems without thinking who we have no reason to think deserves this special power.

[up][up][up]

Literally nobody was implying that.

edited 29th May '17 9:29:40 PM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#71289: May 29th 2017 at 9:34:20 PM

You cannot hate a character because he is both better than everyone at everything AND because he sucks at everything. Pick one or the other. You either hate Danny because he's the best martial artist in the world while also being white, or because he's actually terrible at being the Iron Fist, not both.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#71290: May 29th 2017 at 9:37:01 PM

The thing with Mighty Whitey is that, while the character being better at whatever the non-white people do matters a lot as well, it's also about the narrative focus of having all these eastern cultures elements be so central to the story but excluding the people from the cultures in question of actually being the main characters in the story. In isolation, that wouldn't be such a big deal but when they're excluded again and again it just becomes tedious.

Say Danny wasn't a white guy. That would have less baggage, yes, but it wouldn't be ideal either because it's still a story that centers very heavily on asian mysticism but revolving around a person from some other cultural and ethnic background. People have complained over and over that this would be stereotypical but most asian people don't actually seem to care all that much? Martial arts ARE a part of their culture, most of them would just like it if they could tell their own stories about their own culture for a change.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#71291: May 29th 2017 at 9:37:55 PM

Danny himself comes across as Innocently Insensitive at most, and when called out on it he usually does try to mend his ways. It's just that the show doesn't always call him out on it.

[up][up]I don't see why we can't hate both those things if both those things are being presented on the show. He can beat anyone in martial arts, but he's not actually very good at martial arts, as far as we can see. It's frustrating.

edited 29th May '17 9:46:42 PM by Unsung

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#71292: May 29th 2017 at 9:40:16 PM

It's blatant Character Shilling. He's presented as an immortal weapon and yet Finn Jones can't fight and he's portrayed as a naive buffoon.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#71293: May 29th 2017 at 10:17:39 PM

I am Asian myself and I have never cared much about martial arts, so I don't really give a damn either way. And I don't think anyone I know who watches Iron Fist care much either.

edited 29th May '17 10:19:56 PM by Nightwire

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#71294: May 29th 2017 at 10:42:00 PM

You either hate Danny because he's the best martial artist in the world while also being white, or because he's actually terrible at being the Iron Fist, not both.
The thing is: Danny is the worst Iron Fist ever, but, at the same time, he is also better than everyone around him. Hell, he even beat Davos in the big fight at the end.

So Danny is simultaneously a better fighter than everyone around him and the worst Iron Fist. He rushes into danger without thinking and yet somehow it pretty much all works out (see: where he rushed off to China, fought one guy, and then captured Madame Gao, a woman who previously was shown to be able to knock him down without even touching him).

I am Asian myself and I have never cared much about martial arts, so I don't really give a damn either way. And I don't think anyone I know who watches Iron Fist care much either.
There are lots of people online that disagree with you. Hell, there was an entire Twitter hastag (#AAIronFist) spread around by Asian-Americans to get an Asian-American Iron Fist.

Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#71295: May 29th 2017 at 11:17:38 PM

Well yeah, I'm not saying I stand for everyone, and I get why people feel this way. Heck, I was one of those people who was asking for an Asian-American Iron Fist in the first place. But it still doesn't make it or break it to me.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#71296: May 29th 2017 at 11:43:18 PM

What I don't get is why people were asking for Iron Fist to be specifically Asian-American.

I get the argument for not having him be white, because of the Mighty Whitey cliche. And I can even kind of get the argument for having him be Asian, since the martial arts and mysticism the character practices are rooted in Asian culture, so having the character who masters those arts be from Asia makes sense. But having the character be Asian-American contradicts that whole argument. If Danny Rand had been Asian-American, then he'd still be an outsider appropriating a foreign culture; he'd just happen to look similar to the people whose society he's fallen into.

edited 29th May '17 11:44:28 PM by RavenWilder

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#71297: May 29th 2017 at 11:46:48 PM

The issue wasn't about outsiders mastering martial arts. The issue was that this particular outsider was yet another white protagonist. And appropriation of culture and respect for it are not the same thing and Danny seems to be doing the former.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#71298: May 29th 2017 at 11:58:21 PM

Iron Fist's story has always been about an outsider proving they can fight just as well or better than anyone who was born in K'un-Lun (which going by Davos might be multiethnic anyway). In that regard, the character's race doesn't actually matter. It's just that excluding Asians or Asian-Americans from the running out of a desire not to be stereotypical seems wildly counterproductive— avoiding stereotypes may be well-meant, but not if it means avoiding casting Asians altogether.

The interest in an Asian-American Iron Fist comes from how it affects them once they're back in America, as it gives the story an excuse to be specifically about the experience of being Asian in America, assimilation, integration, tradition, all of that. It's not really something that's depicted very often.

edited 29th May '17 11:58:32 PM by Unsung

Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#71299: May 30th 2017 at 1:18:22 AM

I think there is a distinction here that we should take into account.

Asian-Americans understandably take this kind of thing more personally; but native Asians living in Asian countries, while there are people like me who do care about the issues when it comes to the representation of our cultures, would not be too broken-hearted if things didn't turn out ideally, as for example, we have an overabundance of Asian martial artists in our own media already.

So we tend to just find the "white guy good at martial arts" trope kind of amusing. Like, you wouldn't believe how much my dad is into Steven Seagal movies.

edited 30th May '17 1:19:09 AM by Nightwire

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#71300: May 30th 2017 at 1:26:20 AM

Iron Fist is in terms of themes no more or less complicated than the other shows, the show is just more subtle in it. Plus, Iron Fist is philosophical, which is way more common than a show about morality, psychology or culture. More or less every movie maker tries to be philosophical.

And before someone asks: Iron Fist is about destiny vs self-determination, Tradition vs forging your own path. The show is also very millennial, which might be why so many people dislike Danny as a character.


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