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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#71226: May 29th 2017 at 1:26:34 AM

[up][up]The post just says the character provides motivation, not how or when. Also, I may be misreading, but I thought what they were saying was that Maria and Martha are wasted in the same way, ie. not wasted at all— they serve a narrative purpose, and they don't necessarily need greater depth to do that. "WHY'D YOU SAY THAT NAME" is terrible for reasons that are separate from Martha being a largely Posthumous Character.

Either way, though, I think you're getting a little worked up over this.

[up]Could you guys please take these line-by-line rebuttals to P Ms, or something? If it's anything like the other threads, this is going to go on for pages and pages, and it makes it hard to talk about anything else.

edited 29th May '17 3:09:00 AM by Unsung

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#71227: May 29th 2017 at 1:35:02 AM

Oh derp, somehow I missed the "posthumous motivation for the final battle" bit. Apologies, it's past 5AM and I probably should be sleeping now.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#71228: May 29th 2017 at 1:37:07 AM

Given how comic book fans are infamous for being damn near impossible to please, I really do not blame Snyder fro just doing his own thing

"It is impossible to please every single fan in existence. Therefore I will chose the absolute worst thing that pleases only me. Excuse me while I add testicles to this Transformer."

edited 29th May '17 1:37:25 AM by Tuckerscreator

ExplosiveLion Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
#71229: May 29th 2017 at 1:40:54 AM

Not really getting worked up, just annoyed when people imply things that are not true. Maybe it's in the way that I express myself, and I'd like to apologize in advance if I'm a little... let's say, passionate when I talk about stuff.

Anyhow, I don't agree that both of them are "wasted characters", because their deaths come with the origin and serve a narrative purpose, (specially so from Maria Stark, since not her death but the context around it serves a very specific narrative purpose).

Incidentally, that ties with the whole Jimmy debacle, in that his death serves no purpose other than to establish how bad the dynamic duo of Snyder/Goyer are at handling beloved characters.

[up][up]

Don't apologize, man, I totally get it. It's a little before 4:00 am where I'm at, and I'm awake by sheer willpower alone.

edited 29th May '17 1:44:34 AM by ExplosiveLion

IronScope STOP. RESETTING. MY. DISPLAY. OPTIONS. from Somewhere Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
STOP. RESETTING. MY. DISPLAY. OPTIONS.
#71230: May 29th 2017 at 2:17:54 AM

Calling Martha/Maria a "wasted character" was sarcastic. Jimmy was wasted, someone compared him to Maria, my point was that Maria is better compared to Martha.

This place is careless.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#71231: May 29th 2017 at 2:42:16 AM

I am actually pretty easy to please...I have next to no set notions about any comic book character, I don't go into those movies thinking that they are automatically something lesser because they belong to the superhero genre and while plot holes drives me crazy, I can be pretty forgiving of them as long as the overall logic still somewhat works and the characters are interesting. In short, give me compelling characters and I am okay. Hell, even if I don't like a movie I can still endorse it if I think that it is solid enough that I can see other people honestly enjoying it even if it is not for me. The thing is, even people who claim that they like the DCEU movies tend to be either not particularly convincing or they describe a movie I simply don't see on screen.

[up] There is no difference between Maria and Martha...they are both pretty non-characters. The difference is in the way the impact their death had on Tony and Bruce is shown. Civil War does a nearly perfect job clarifying how traumatized Tony was by the whole matter and how close he was to his mother as opposed to his father, with whom he had a volatile relationship (which is pretty impressive considering that Maria is barely mentioned beforehand), while Dawn of Justice and most other Batman movies makes it about the Trauma of experience this particular night and way less about the loss in itself. Consequently the "Maaaaartha!!!" reaction comes pretty much out of nowhere and doesn't really seem to fit...plus, some really bad acting choices. When Tony says "I don't care. He killed my mom." my heart breaks for him even though I really want him to leave my poor, poor Bucky alone. When Batman starts to scream "how do you know that name!" I want to laugh.

edited 29th May '17 2:48:44 AM by Swanpride

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#71232: May 29th 2017 at 3:07:01 AM

Or maybe just because you didn't find these characters and stories compelling it doesn't mean others don't. That's fine but at the end of the day it is you opinion.

The thing is, even people who claim that they like the DCEU movies tend to be either not particularly convincing or they describe a movie I simply don't see on screen.

Pretty much how I feel when I see people defending stuff like Age of Ultron or Civil War or Winter Soldier.

edited 29th May '17 3:18:42 AM by windleopard

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#71233: May 29th 2017 at 5:24:12 AM

[up] When I say "I don't see on screen" I don't mean they like something I don't or see a deeper level I consider overreaching...what I mean is that they add all kind of stuff to the movie which is actually not in the movie itself, but from the comic books or from interviews. Like the whole "Joker killed Robin" thing they were all talking about Dawn of Justice....that is not in the movie. What is in the movie is a glimpse of a destroyed Robin suit. Based on this we only know that something bad happened....and we only know that it was Joker and that the victim was Robin and that Robin was Batman's partner/ward that is all from the comics, it is nothing which is in any way in the movie. This is pretty much like doing The Winter Soldier without doing The First Avengers first and without the "let's summon up what happened in it" scene at the beginning of the movie and expecting the audience to immediately understand who Bucky is.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#71234: May 29th 2017 at 7:43:02 AM

And they have no reason to given they make up a very small minority of the audience.
And yet caring about characters and fans of those characters is exactly how the MCU got popular. This is like asking why people don't like the DCEU and then ignoring the reason they give you.

That anyone could die?
1) That could have been conveyed in a much better way. 2) If that was the message, it didn't work, since the only person who died was a character who was just introduced and we didn't even know was Jimmy Olsen until the credits. Generally, Anyone Can Die means any main character can die.

What development?
The opening of the film where there is a sem-flashback and we see her talking to a young Tony. It's the development of "Hey, here she is as an actual character and not a plot device."

No. I'm pointing out the different circumstances.
No, you are moving goalposts. Your answer to why they killed Jimmy Olsen was "If they didn't, people would have simply hated the character anyway" and then when it was pointed out that people loved the character Bucky, despite all the changes, you said that only comics fans loved Bucky before the film. Which, again, is wrong and also not even the point. Changing a character can work when done right. And changing a character to appeal to a wider audience does and has worked before.

A very small part.
It's still then telling a part of the audience "Hey, you, we don't care about you. We hate everything you love. Here, having someone shooting Jimmy Olsen in the face because we hate you."

Who cares indeed. Given how comic book fans are infamous for being damn near impossible to please, I really do not blame Snyder fro just doing his own thing and thinking more about the people who don't know or care about Jimmy aka most of the audience.
And here we are moving the goalposts again. Now you are saying that those who care about Jimmy Olsen are comics fans. Which makes them the same people as those who cared about Bucky, apparently. But also: comic book fans are not infamous for being unable to please — all fans are infamous for being unable to please. Fans of Little Women wanted two characters to get together than Louisa May Alcott didn't. Fans of Sherlock Holmes basically forced Arthur Conan Doyle to keep writing. Saying that only comics fans are known as impossible to please is just inherently wrong. And if you are going to ignore the fans completely — why would you even include Jimmy Olsen in the first place?

(Hint: it's because they thought it would please the fans, but it didn't. That's why they called it a "fun Easter Egg.")

You and I have very different experiences of fandom.
There are a million different versions of Batman and each of them has their own fans. There has never been a version of Batman that has been categorically rejected by fandom, aside from perhaps Crazy Steve. Even the '66 Batman, who was made fun of for the longest time, has a lot of fans these days. You say that comics fans are unpleasable, but fandom also has one of the largest outpourings of love for their favorite characters.

And that's the difference so far between the MCU and the DCEU. The MCU looked at the characters and thought, "Well, comics fans tend to love these characters a lot. Let's see if we can get everyone to love them like comics fans do." While the DCEU went "Well, fans tend to love these characters a lot. Eh, we need someone to die, let's make it Jimmy Olsen."

edited 29th May '17 7:46:35 AM by alliterator

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#71235: May 29th 2017 at 9:23:54 AM

Okay, complaints about Iron Fist I have: Horrendous pacing in the first five episodes, horrible editing with the fight scenes, Finn Jones being a kind of "meh" actor, Bakuto being portrayed by an awful actor and having the most annoying line delivery in the show, the lack of flashbacks to Danny's time in K'un L'un, the sheer amounts of violation of "show, don't tell", and Davos barely even being there and thus not having as much umph as it could've to make his fallout with Danny work.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#71236: May 29th 2017 at 9:35:05 AM

My complains are bad editing in general which really ruins the sometimes stunning camera work, the execution of the fight scenes which really ruin some amazing choreography (I really appreciate that the show did not go for the flashy stuff but for precise movements which look a little bit like a dance) and the lack of budget in general which resulted in short cuts and tell don't show moments which are really obvious just there to save money. Otherwise there are a few hooky lines at odd places (who the hell starts to chant while hanging from a flag mast?), but nothing which would ruin the story or the characters for me. I don't even mind the pacing, because nothing which happens in the beginning is truly irrelevant, and I prefer a story which starts slow and then works towards a proper finale in an even speed. They overuse the plane crash scene, though.

And the intro should have been green. Also Danny's clothes, at least towards the end.

edited 29th May '17 9:35:42 AM by Swanpride

Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#71237: May 29th 2017 at 10:08:03 AM

[up]Not perfect, but not awful.

Personally I would rather they took that $120 million for The Get Down and show a full blown Iron Fist vs dragons fight.

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#71238: May 29th 2017 at 11:18:40 AM

Also, I kept thinking this every time Trish was onscreen, but Rachael Taylor would have made a perfect Carol Danvers.

My various fanfics.
ComicFan Since: Sep, 2016
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#71240: May 29th 2017 at 11:28:31 AM

Ah shit, Jessica's getting arrested again.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#71241: May 29th 2017 at 11:29:32 AM

It must be Tuesday.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#71242: May 29th 2017 at 11:36:13 AM

I like to imagine each of those shots is Jessica getting arrested on a separate occasion.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#71243: May 29th 2017 at 11:51:26 AM

The shots of her being arrested could be tied to what happens in Defenders

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#71244: May 29th 2017 at 11:54:15 AM

That shot of her on the ground? She's having this conversation.

  • Jessica: Hey, Sam. How are the kids?
  • Officer: (clicking the handcuffs around her wrists) Doing well. Little Sarah's about to start third grade.
  • Jessica: Wasn't she in first grade last time? Has it really been that long since my Disorderly Conduct?
  • Officer: She's too clever for school. She skipped second to be in more challenging classes.
  • Jessica: Aww. Give her my best.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#71245: May 29th 2017 at 1:33:26 PM

Na, this is not her getting arrested. Haven't you learned anything? Whenever the police if approaching a protagonist from behind, there will be an escape before they can get a good look in the face.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#71246: May 29th 2017 at 1:55:19 PM

"You're missing the point by a mile, Windle. They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character for shock value is the complaint being made here. Not some nonsensical point about the importance of fictional lives (?). "

funny thing is, I just saw Logan right now and the way they kill the important chararter is pretty damn good....it short of happen. its not as climatic point where the movie stop to said "OH THE POOR CHARARTER HAVE DIE!" like quicksilver or when they "kill" Warmachine(yes I know they didnt but to narrative efect they did) and is not a "boom, he is dead" like in DCCU, it just sort of....there, is quick, is dark and IT WORKS

Anyway im not going to step him just saying that killing him was not shock value because he didnt establish who he was, they decide Olsen didnt fit, if sydner didnt kill him he wouldnt show up.

" but why would killing him off be preferable to, say, not using him at all?"

people would complain ether way, just with the DCCU instead of zack

"would have never gotten Coulson's passionate speeches about the important of Shield, we would have never learned the Tahiti is a magical place, we would have never seen him doing a portal jump or being disappointed that he missed out on Quake and Ghostrider being badass together. So a dead character is always a missed story opportunity, while a damaged character is an opportunity to expand on the possible stories you could tell about a character. IE a lost hand could either lead to depression or to a badass tool."

So? marvel still try to have is cake and eat too which is why coulson is pretty much death in the movieverse, even them to worry because not more story would be told is pointless since marvel have kill chararter and it turn fine anyway(quicksilver again)

"the MCU cares that there are Richard Rider fans"

you see....it dosent matter and playing that is just emocional weight, marvel didnt give a damn to kill quicksilver or cut the part of wanda in civil war because they go against the narrative, the idea marvel give a shit about their fans is pretty damn hilarious considering they have disposed chararters before.

So today I will saw the rest of the first season(currently I finished episode 6, which mean the russians guys are out) and so far its pretty good, saw some complain people have manifest here like Matt bossing clarie around and how a chinise guy die in gun fight pretty easly and...yeah, it bad and aparently it would turn worst, dosent it?

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
ExplosiveLion Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
#71247: May 29th 2017 at 2:53:12 PM

... but Quicksilver was developed and, while his death was stupid as shit, it opened a whole new narrative opportunity to Wanda's story.

Say what you will, but saying that "they shouldn't care about the fans wishes" is really wrong. I mean, if not for that, then what the fuck are they even making these movies for?

I mean, compare Jimmy's appearance with Wanda's absence in the X-Men movies. They didn't use the character, and everybody was fine with it; there was no outcry. Nobody complaining that they replaced her with the younger sister. Nothing.

Yet, if they had Wanda be killed by... whoever was the bad guy in Days of Future Past, and we only knew in an interview after the movie came out to increase a shock value to the death to an otherwise unimportant charater... I mean, don't you get why people are pissed about that decision?

edited 29th May '17 2:58:20 PM by ExplosiveLion

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#71248: May 29th 2017 at 5:35:20 PM

So I'm watching the "problematic" fight scene with Danny and Colleen. I don't see the problem. Why shouldn't the protagonist, who lived and trained in a magical kung fu kingdom for fifteen years, be better than the broke chick with a basement dojo?

My various fanfics.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#71249: May 29th 2017 at 5:39:24 PM

It's a white guy beating an Asian woman and gloating about he's better at martial arts than her. Going from a Watsonian perspective, sure, it's probably not that bad in the context (even though it just serves to make Danny a creepy douche), but from a Doylist perspective it's kinda iffy.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#71250: May 29th 2017 at 5:40:31 PM

I don't think he's gloating, he's trying to help her. Remember that he wanted a job at her dojo?

My various fanfics.

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