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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#71201: May 28th 2017 at 5:56:19 PM

There's also the other side of the complaint: The deaths of Olsen and Mercy were entirely unrelated to their characters. You could have replaced them with "Reporter #3" and "Butler #1" and it wouldn't have made a difference.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#71202: May 28th 2017 at 6:03:41 PM

Yeah. Crappy as it was, at least Quicksilver died because of his own actions and decisions.

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#71203: May 28th 2017 at 6:17:24 PM

So I'm watching the first episode of Iron Fist. I dunno, maybe it's because I'm white, but I think it's okay.

My various fanfics.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#71204: May 28th 2017 at 6:17:44 PM

Give it time...

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#71205: May 28th 2017 at 6:19:29 PM

Unpopular opinion, but I actually think Iron Fist is good. Second to Daredevil season 1 good.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#71207: May 28th 2017 at 6:26:38 PM

[up]Same. It's not the abomination some would have you believe but it has flaws.

Although it comes into its own later rather than starting out the gate.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#71208: May 28th 2017 at 6:44:21 PM

I like Iron Fist, too...it actually resonates more with me than Daredevil, even though I acknowledge that Daredevil is overall better made.

I simply like grey characters (even though I still think that the Intro should have been green).

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#71209: May 28th 2017 at 6:46:03 PM

....Was that a pun?

edited 28th May '17 6:46:13 PM by SonOfSharknado

My various fanfics.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#71210: May 28th 2017 at 7:00:03 PM

A lot of fan opinions I've seen regarding Iron Fist is that its fair share of problems but is an enjoyable show, if you can get past the whole controversy or were invested in the character previously anyway.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#71211: May 28th 2017 at 7:08:33 PM

Most fan opinion I've seen still leans towards negative with small bits of positive reactions to certain things (Harold Meachum, Ward's entire arc, Colleen Wing, the small appearances Claire and Hogarth make, and of course Madame friggin' Gao). I still hate it so much, though I admire the good things about it because they were really fucking good stuff put in a really fucking bad show.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#71212: May 28th 2017 at 7:09:38 PM

The biggest problem with Iron Fist is the pacing of the first few episodes, but if you're enjoying them anyway then there shouldn't be any issue. It only gets better from there.

If you genuinely like it, then just kick back and enjoy the show instead of worrying about the reviews or anything.

Me, personally, I wouldn't put it on the same level as Daredevil S1 (That still stands as the best product the MCU has made, in my opinion), but I liked it about as much as I liked the other shows.

edited 28th May '17 7:17:52 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#71213: May 28th 2017 at 7:10:34 PM

I fail to see how that's any better. It's still killing a character to show his evil the villain is and that doesn't change whether we know the name or not (and really how many people in the audience would care?)
All the Richard Rider fans would care. That, I think, is what the differene is: the MCU cares that there are Richard Rider fans. The DCEU doesn't seem to care that there are Jimmy Olsen fans.

The MCU is not immune to crappy deaths (Quicksilver)
But that was also after having an entire movie with Quicksilver as one of the main characters. He didn't just appear as a cameo and then die.

At least there is some meaning in killing a named character as opposed to killing nameless extras the audience has no attachment to.
What meaning?

Basically this argument is "I'm cool with shock deaths as long as it isn't a character I like".
No, that isn't what it's about at all. It's "I'm cool with shock deaths as long as they aren't killing off any actual characters or as long as that character has had a bit of character development as part of the film."

Someone should have told the Russos that when they introduced Maria Stark just to have her killed by Barnes.
She had a scene prior to her death that did develop her. Name me one bit of dialogue Jimmy Olsen had in BVS.

I don't think killing a named character for shock is necessarily good in and of itself either. I just don't see it as any worse than killing nameless extras.
Because nobody cares about nameless characters. And even if you give them names, they don't have any history with the audience. If you introduce a character from the comics, odds are someone in the audience will know who they are and will be disappointed if they die immediately for shock value. Especially if that character has a long history, like Jimmy Olsen. But a nameless character dying...well, that happens all the time, so we are innured to it, we don't care as much about characters we don't know.

You and I both know that if they had changed Jimmy to fit the DCEU, you'd have fans bemoaning that he wasn't the Jimmy from the comics.
But now we would never know if any changes they made to him were good or bad. Hell, I love Wonder Woman's portrayal and she's in the DCEU! Honestly, if they had kept him alive, I think I would have liked "CIA Agent Olsen" quite a bit.

Nobody who wasn't a comic fan knew nor cared about Bucky.
And now you are just moving goalposts. We are giving you several examples of the MCU changing characters and people accepting them, but your response it "But nobody cares about those characters except comics fans!" First off: no, that is incorrect. Second of all: even if it was correct, what does it matter? Comics fans are still part of the audience for these movies. Most of the people you are complaining about (those who didn't like the Superman and Batman DCEU versions) are comics fans. So who cares?

There are numerous versions of these characters too but that doesn't stop fans from crying "ruined forever" when even the slightest of deviations are made.
Now this is just a lie. There are numerous versions, correct, and fans have accepted 99% of those versions. By the way, the phrase "ruined forever" has become something of a joke — it's used by people these days to represent the fan who is never satisfied by anything. So you using it as if to portray 100% of fandom is incorrect as well.

edited 28th May '17 7:12:07 PM by alliterator

MapleSamurai Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
#71214: May 28th 2017 at 7:30:28 PM

I have a lot of feelings on why Jimmy Olsen's death in Bv S was two tons of donkey shit, most of which have already been expressed by other tropers in previous pages. The only thing of note I have to add is comparatively simple, but something I consider to be worth saying: if the only reason you have for a creative decision is shock value, then don't fucking do it!

Okay, that's probably oversimplifying things. What I mean is that the shock moment should have more of a point. Especially in the case of killing off characters. Since you're depriving audiences of further stories that could be told with that character, you'd better have a really good reason for killing them off, and shock is a very fleeting emotion that doesn't add much in the grand scheme of things.In short...

Director: Now this beloved character lives no more! Ain't that a gut punch?

Me: I suppose. So what else you got?

Director: Uh... just that, I guess.

Me: Then what's the point?

edited 28th May '17 7:32:05 PM by MapleSamurai

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#71215: May 28th 2017 at 7:32:49 PM

Didn't people have the opposite complaint about Suicide Squad, though? That the character given the random shock death to help set up the premise was a guy no one gave a shit about?

edited 28th May '17 7:33:15 PM by RavenWilder

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#71216: May 28th 2017 at 7:33:36 PM

[up][up]Or, to use a previous example: Agent Coulson. He had three previous movie appearances before dying and he had a lot of small character development moments in The Avengers before he died. And even then he was only mostly dead and came back for Agents of SHIELD. Or, to use a more recent example: SUPER DUPER SPOILERS FOLKS Yondu in Guardians vol 2, whose death was a culmination of two movies worth of character development and was still shocking.

That the character given the random shock death to help set up the premise was a guy no one gave a shit about?
The problem with that is Slipknot's entire purpose is to be "random shocking death to prove Amanda Waller isn't bluffing." But the death doesn't come off as shocking at all because he's introduced with no intro montage like the rest and he's given no backstory aside from one sentence, so it's incredibly obvious he's going to die. It's not because nobody gave a shit about him, it's because everyone expected him to die, so it wasn't shocking.

edited 28th May '17 7:37:51 PM by alliterator

MapleSamurai Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
#71217: May 28th 2017 at 7:36:32 PM

[up][up]Just replace "beloved character" with "rando no one gives a donkey's left testicle about" in the first line, and you get the same sentiment. My point still stands that shock value moments should have some point other than shock value or else they're completely worthless.

[down]Pretty much my point.

edited 28th May '17 7:44:01 PM by MapleSamurai

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#71218: May 28th 2017 at 7:41:36 PM

[up][up][up]That's not really the opposite, is it? That's kind of the same complaint: Slipknot has no character development so nobody cares about his death. Though I think the actual complaint about Slipknot is that his death is so obvious that it loses any sense of suspense or excitement.

The problem isn't killing off named characters, it's with not making those characters' deaths matter. If Jimmy had been a well-developed character the audience sympathized with and who Superman and his supporting cast knew and cared about, and then he died, that would have been a shock. It still might have been handled well or poorly, but it definitely would have been a shock. Naming characters James Olsen and Mercy Graves only to kill them off without them having done anything just seems like a pointless waste. There's no in-universe reason to care about them, so it just seems like there's no out-of-universe reason for them to be used.

edited 28th May '17 7:41:51 PM by Unsung

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#71219: May 28th 2017 at 9:39:11 PM

Trying to compare Maria Stark to Jimmy Olsen is a terrible example, because we already know she died in the same "accident" as Howard long before we actually see how it happened. So it was providing proper context to a background detail. No Take That! found there. Whereas Jimmy was introduced solely so he could die, and it was really unnecessary to go out of one's way to do so.

IronScope STOP. RESETTING. MY. DISPLAY. OPTIONS. from Somewhere Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
STOP. RESETTING. MY. DISPLAY. OPTIONS.
#71220: May 28th 2017 at 9:50:57 PM

Maria Stark was a wasted character the same way Martha Wayne was a wasted character. Literally the exact same role: Hero's Dead Mum, provides posthumous motivation in the final battle.

This place is careless.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#71221: May 28th 2017 at 10:41:40 PM

I still find it humorous that people were so riled up over Coulson's death, both in and out of universe, because I had no idea who he was when he died so I was just confused and underwhelmed at why I should have cared.

ExplosiveLion Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
#71222: May 29th 2017 at 12:58:31 AM

[up][up]

Uhm, when did Martha Wayne provide motivation for the final battle in Bv S? Nobody was fighting because of her. She only provided the most amazingly fucking stupid excuse to end a fight I've ever seen in cinema.

God, I hate the "Save Martha!" thing. I HATE IT.

Also, since the very first MCU movie, Maria Stark was already dead. She was a plot device. If anything, her character was expanded by giving more background and context to her death. So, yeah, she wasn't a wasted character.

@Iron Fist being bad:

I don't think Iron Fist is bad. Yes, Danny is an imbecile now and again, but I reasoned that, well, he kind of never grew up in the context he's now involved with. Of course he's incompetent and behaves like an idiot.

What other complaint do people really have, other than the shitty editing?

edited 29th May '17 1:02:36 AM by ExplosiveLion

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#71223: May 29th 2017 at 1:01:34 AM

That comes across as a non-sequitur since the poster in question was only referring to Martha Wayne's role as "character who only really exists to die in the hero's backstory to motivate the hero". The Bv S scene doesn't have much bearing on that.

ExplosiveLion Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
#71224: May 29th 2017 at 1:14:49 AM

Maria Stark was a wasted character the same way Martha Wayne was a wasted character. Literally the exact same role: Hero's Dead Mum, provides posthumous motivation in the final battle.

That's literally wrong.

If he means that both died to provide motivation in the final battle, then no, Martha didn't. Her death doesn't impact Superman and Batman's fight, at all.

And if he means that both died to provide motivation, period, then that's also wrong, since Tony didn't became Iron-Man because of her mother's death, but to a set of completely unrelated circumstances.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#71225: May 29th 2017 at 1:24:43 AM

The DCEU doesn't seem to care that there are Jimmy Olsen fans.

And they have no reason to given they make up a very small minority of the audience.

What meaning?

That anyone could die?

She had a scene prior to her death that did develop her.[/quoteblock]]

What development?

[[quoteblock]]And now you are just moving goalposts.

No. I'm pointing out the different circumstances.

even if it was correct, what does it matter? Comics fans are still part of the audience for these movies.

A very small part.

Most of the people you are complaining about (those who didn't like the Superman and Batman DCEU versions) are comics fans. So who cares?

Who cares indeed. Given how comic book fans are infamous for being damn near impossible to please, I really do not blame Snyder fro just doing his own thing and thinking more about the people who don't know or care about Jimmy aka most of the audience.

Now this is just a lie. There are numerous versions, correct, and fans have accepted 99% of those versions.

You and I have very different experiences of fandom.

By the way, the phrase "ruined forever" has become something of a joke — it's used by people these days to represent the fan who is never satisfied by anything. So you using it as if to portray 100% of fandom is incorrect as well.

And when did I ever do that?


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