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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#71126: May 27th 2017 at 10:43:08 AM

To reiterate, they already released a scene still showing Banner on Sakaar and we've had it confirmed Ruffalo does play Banner at points in the movie. It's probably not him being poisoned by Sakaar's environment.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#71127: May 27th 2017 at 10:51:46 AM

Based on Banner's arc up to this point, I expect this is about the point in the movies when he starts accepting the Hulk in himself and forges a working relationship of sorts with him, maybe even giving us some elements of Grey Hulk down the line.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#71129: May 27th 2017 at 11:20:30 AM

I almost said Joe Fixit. Gotta bring Hulk back into the fold for Infinity War somehow, right?

Stark: Buddy, you know I love you, but a tailored suit in your size costs about as much as one of my tin cans. So don't do that thing you usually do with your clothes, is what I'm saying.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#71130: May 27th 2017 at 2:22:16 PM

Better a suit then whatever that brown monstrosity he was wearing in the Infinity Gauntlet series

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#71133: May 27th 2017 at 3:38:27 PM

Why would the Grandmaster have a framed painting of himself losing...? ...Well, other than the obvious.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#71134: May 27th 2017 at 3:53:59 PM

It's from the GOTG MCU ride they opened at Disney so I think it's at the Collector's house actually. Which is still pretty funny.

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#71135: May 27th 2017 at 7:23:44 PM

So me and my parents are almost done with Jessica Jones and I noticed something... weird.

Like, Killgrave's powers are clearly a metaphor and an allegory for rape. Yet at the same time, Simpson and Malcolm are kind of dismissed for what happened to them, with Malcolm's life basically being destroyed and Simpson being forced to commit murder. They're more or less told to get over it, as if somehow what happened to them is less legitimate or somehow doesn't count.

My various fanfics.
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#71136: May 27th 2017 at 7:30:37 PM

Are they? I never really got that impression.

Oh God! Natural light!
Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#71137: May 27th 2017 at 7:32:55 PM

[up]If anything it feels like something of a survivors group.

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#71138: May 27th 2017 at 7:33:02 PM

Simpson is often treated as a hindrance at best and an obstacle at worst, even before he starts taking the Murica pills. Meanwhile, Malcolm is basically treated as an annoyance once he's clean, despite wanting to help Jessica and basically everything he does being him trying to help Jessica or help the cause in whatever way he, as a complete noncombatant, can, and spending most of his screen time with "Mental Illness the Punchline."

My various fanfics.
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#71139: May 27th 2017 at 7:36:25 PM

I mean, I wouldn't necessarily look at how, say, Jessica treats them as something we should be expected to agree with - she's hardly a moral pillar.

Oh God! Natural light!
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#71140: May 27th 2017 at 7:37:48 PM

But she is our protagonist and the show is focused through her lens. If people are shown to be good, it's in spite of her. Like how the optimism is basically beaten out of Malcolm and how we get a throwaway line about Simpson being a good guy before the pills, which is almost immediately shut down by "No he wasn't."

My various fanfics.
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#71141: May 27th 2017 at 7:44:55 PM

Well, here's the thing about Will - I don't think that the show treats his trauma like it isn't valid. But he seems to think that it's more important than anyone else's. Notice, for example, that he goes to Trish's apartment to apologize, even when Trish is just as traumatized by the situation as he is, and does not want to see him (the fact that she ends up liking him doesn't make that okay). And later on, he has to be the one to kill Kilgrave - to him, he's the hero of the story.

So no, I don't really think he was a good guy.

And how is Malcolm a punchline, exactly?

Oh God! Natural light!
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#71142: May 27th 2017 at 7:48:01 PM

There are multiple male characters who have suffered under Kilgrave in the show and all of their plights are taken very seriously, even the guy who was forced to give up his coat, making very clear that even a "small" invasion can be a traumatic event. Malcolm represents the abuse victim who turned to drugs, just like Jessica turned to alcohol. Simmons is a tricky one, because his role is to present toxic masculinity, but consider how far he goes down the rabbit hole basically because he can't deal with the notion of someone being able to emasculate him that easily.

Seriously there is a guy who lost two kidneys to Killgrave and had his life ruined so that he now only wants to die, how can you claim that the suffering of the male victims is in any way downplayed?

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#71143: May 27th 2017 at 7:48:38 PM

I mean, Will's clearly messed up, and he's got his issues. I don't think he's the hero either, but I don't really think he's bad up until the eleventh hour.

And sorry, I wasn't really clear. Malcolm's not the punchline, the sister who's name escapes me is. Mostly it escapes me because I don't think it's ever said. Shit, I only remember Reuben's name because they say it about a hundred times after he dies.

[up] Totally forgot about that guy. My bad.

[down] Robyn, that's it, thank you.

edited 27th May '17 7:50:28 PM by SonOfSharknado

My various fanfics.
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#71144: May 27th 2017 at 7:48:44 PM

I'd say it's more about the show depicting people as complicated. Jessica has long since written off pretty much everyone who isn't Trish. We're meant to sympathize with her, and see how easy it is to agree with her, but we're also shown how her cynicism walls her off from people. Most people have written off Jessica, too. It goes both ways.

We see for ourselves that maybe Will wasn't such a bad guy, that his heroic impulses, even if they could be corrupted, could still be a force for good. We see how the assumptions about Malcolm are unfair— if anyone had bothered to actually get to know him, they might have realized why he was spiraling— Jessica in particular could have saved herself a lot of trouble if she'd looked more closely at Malcolm. And once he's off the stuff, Malcolm turns out to be one of the show's most uncompromisingly altruistic characters. Even Robyn and Ruben are humanized as the show goes on. They obviously had a lot of problems, and Robyn still does, but they were still human beings.

Everyone's looking for a connection. What the show does a good job of doing is showing how fragile and easily twisted those connections can become, but how important they still are, even then.

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#71145: May 27th 2017 at 7:50:54 PM

What Unsung said.

Oh God! Natural light!
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#71146: May 27th 2017 at 7:56:13 PM

I do think the show kind of skims over the fact Will is clearly highly unsound of mind due the experiments he was subjected to (the fact he keeps popping pills to function and his overall interactions implies some mighty chemical imbalances) and is more or less a variation of a Tyke-Bomb, which really makes him a lot more tragic than the show seems to think he is.

But I don't think Malcolm is a joke at all.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#71147: May 27th 2017 at 8:20:50 PM

I said it before, but it bears repeating: The point of Will is that the show is luring the audience into seeing his behaviour as acceptable and then revealing the darker undertones in it. Him going back to Trish is not an act of apology, because if he would really care about her feelings, he would leave her alone and send her a letter instead of terrifying her just so that he can get his absolution in person. The story with the Dream house is not cute either, this guy torched the toys of his sister just to feel like a hero in a make-believe scenario. It wasn't about helping Barbie, it was about his own ego. And yet I am ready to bet that most of the audience didn't really see the warning signs. It is a good reminder how we are trained to consider a certain behaviour in males as acceptable, even though it isn't really acceptable at all.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#71148: May 27th 2017 at 9:02:26 PM

Malcolm is one of the most unselfish characters in the entire show and his trauma is explored in depth.

Will, on the other hand, is given sympathy until it's revealed that his toxic masculinity has corrupted him and he cannot bear not being in charge.

And Jessica is not the show's moral compass. Jessica is one of the many trauma survivors in the show and she has retreated into a world where she cares about no one except herself and Trish. The show slowly peels away layers of Jessica until she does start caring about other people, starting with Hope and then moving to Malcolm and finally telling Trish that she loves her. But she is still someone who walls herself away (see: the very last scene, where she refuses the answer the phone and Malcolm does it for her) and her behavior should not be seen as good (see: not wanting to be a part of the survivor's group).

edited 27th May '17 9:03:52 PM by alliterator

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#71149: May 27th 2017 at 9:05:04 PM

[up][up] That. Will is the guy whose coping mechanism for being victimized is to take three shots of Toxic Masculinity, declare he wasn't victimized, and then start plotting ways to get his; the guy so busy working on how to reclaim the power over his life that he refuses to even stop and acknowledge that it was ever taken in the first place. The guy who busies himself finding new ways to feel powerful because he cannot, must not be so weak as to be someone else's victim.

edited 27th May '17 9:05:31 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#71150: May 27th 2017 at 9:14:39 PM

I think everyone here is quite aware of the toxic masculinity critique integrated into his character.

The part I feel the show kind of handwaves away is the fact Kozlov has, explicitly, mucked up with Simpson's brain chemistry and that he is not a man in a right, healthy state of mind as a result, which is the bit I feel the show tends to ignore. The character is a parallel and critique to the concept of toxic masculinity, fair enough, but it's a tad weird they tacked on the aspect of his aggressiveness being the direct result of a highly unethical science experiment coupled with trauma that drove him to murderous insanity. It makes him tragic in a way the show doesn't want him to be.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."

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