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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#70901: May 20th 2017 at 10:10:22 PM

The show blowing its entire budget on an entire season dedicated to Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur would be the best use of money in history.

This song needs more love.
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#70902: May 20th 2017 at 10:27:00 PM

I'd say the issue with the term Mary Sue is that it is, by origin, a fanfiction term, and loses some of its meaning when applied to official, canon stories. The reason Mary Sues are so hated isn't just because they're ridiculously talented and beloved (though that on its own can be super-annoying), but also because the writer's focus on and adoration of their Mary Sue creation comes at the expense of the canon characters that readers came to the fanfic for. The term thus becomes a little muddled when the character in question is canon, too.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#70903: May 20th 2017 at 10:29:01 PM

But yeah: when Amadeus Cho was introduced, he was the eighth smartest person in the world. And yet not a Mary Sue!

Smarts had nothing to do with it. I disliked that his introduction seemed toward Writer on Board "one new character conquers everything" syndrome. WATCH as this kid proves his smarts by Bullet Time overpowering... a couple of restaurant employees for no reason. BEHOLD as he gives yet another "the Hulk totally never kills people" speeches. Once he had someone like Hercules to bounce off of, he got to be more interesting.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#70904: May 20th 2017 at 10:43:27 PM

[up][up]There's also the fact that fanfiction doesn't have editors, so the truly self-indulgent crap doesn't get filtered out the same way it does with "canon" material.

That being said, Canon Sues definitely exist (The former trope namer for Creator's Pet, Wesley Crusher, is a pretty famous example). And a "shared universe" setting with multiple writers, like comic books, are more vulnerable to the scenario you describe than other media with more focused creative control.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#70905: May 20th 2017 at 11:04:29 PM

"but Peter Parker's in the same boat and nobody calls him a Sue as far as I've seen."

Most of the time the chararter is as inteligent as any other unless Being super smart is and actúal power so it balance out

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#70906: May 20th 2017 at 11:23:18 PM

I thought Cho was the only person to insist the Hulk never killed anyone.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#70907: May 20th 2017 at 11:30:28 PM

Nah, Jen Walters did too. With a really bizarre theorem claiming: "the Hulk has never killed anyone because if he had, Banner would have killed himself in penance."

...such a fallacious line of reasoning. Maybe he just doesn't know if people have died in the chaos? Maybe he's too scared to look? Maybe he can't kill himself because the Hulk's survived being tossed into the core of a planet?

"I threw a grenade out on the street once and nobody died. Therefore it's safe to keep throwing grenades anywhere."

edited 20th May '17 11:31:59 PM by Tuckerscreator

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#70908: May 20th 2017 at 11:52:52 PM

Pardon my dramatics but What is wrong with Marvel writers when it comes to the Hulk? Do they really not understand the implications of what they write when they do stuff like this? I'm no fan of Mark Millar but when he had the most honest take on the character you know something is wrong.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#70909: May 20th 2017 at 11:59:07 PM

Peter Parker balances out being incredibly intelligent with being really stupid about life choices.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#70910: May 21st 2017 at 12:53:35 AM

I mean, Banner could always shoot his brains out with a shotgun when he's not the Hulk; I doubt anything's keeping him alive after that.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#70911: May 21st 2017 at 1:20:47 AM

As for the option of wanting Riri or other unliked characters killed off, wouldn't it just be easier to have her, you know, retire or quit? True, comic books tend to abuse deaths a lot (not that it sticks) but just as many of them just go away. I remember the Young Avengers were on a pretty long moratorium before Gillen revived them, and I haven't followed the newer series but Patriot is basically gone and Iron Lad Kang's been in limbo for a long time.

KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#70912: May 21st 2017 at 1:26:09 AM

Officially, he's tried that in different occasions. Banner has survived nuclear explosions because of the Hulk. You could argue that he is aware his life is about to end and so the transformation starts and mitigates any injury to Banner, so maybe an unexpected anti-tank cannon harming him enough before Hulk can trigger, but that's not something you can really explore (kind of like Blade being immune to most vampire weaknesses, but can he survive a stake to the heart or being beheaded?).

For me, Hulk and Banner are most interesting as someone who wants to be left alone, recognizing the Hulk as a real danger to everyone around him. All the additions of Professor Hulk or otherwise controlling the transformation and retaining conscious thought takes away the most interesting part of the character.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#70913: May 21st 2017 at 2:04:46 AM

Every legacy character pretty much starts out as a Mary Sue because they are there to replace the character the readers care about and actually want to spend time with in favour of some sort of newbie....consequently those who operate parallel to the original character, like Miss Marvel does (since the former Miss Marvel is now captain Marvel which is totally okay because next to nobody cared about the original Captain Marvel anyway) have a lower threshold of resistance to overcome. And then it naturally helps if they are different from the OG...meaning different abilities, different backstory, different personality.......

So...let's test if Riri is still a Mary Sue: How are her abilities different from Ironman, is her backstory particularly interesting and what are her character flaws?

I think she is already loosing points concerning the backstory, because if "yeah, she was able to cobble the suit together" is her origin story it is one of the most boring things I have ever heard.

Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#70914: May 21st 2017 at 3:45:24 AM

Cho was a character that needed someone to bounce off to come into his own.

Incredible Hercules did that exceptionally well.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#70915: May 21st 2017 at 4:11:37 AM

So...let's test if Riri is still a Mary Sue: How are her abilities different from Ironman, is her backstory particularly interesting and what are her character flaws?

As pointed out, she isn't as smart as Tony and needed his help to build a better suit and a functional A.I. Her backstory shows her showing losing her friend and step father in a drive by shooting. We haven't gotten into her character flaws yet but she's still a new character and besides not having flaws doesn't seem to make Captain America a Mary Sue.

Legacy characters' origins aren't anymore sue-ish than the originals.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#70916: May 21st 2017 at 4:37:48 AM

[up] The character beats are more or less the first thing you have to figure out. Take Steve. The first thing we learn about him is that he really wants to be a soldier because he feels he shouldn't do anything less than anyone else. But even Bucky questions if that is really all and calls him out on his need to proof himself, no matter the cost. We also learn how incredible stubborn Steve is and that he will throw himself into a fight no matter what the odds are. All those aspects can be seen as good character traits (we are talking about Captain America after all), but they also can be character flaws in specific circumstances.

And that is a character who is meant to be a paragon of virtue. Matt's martyr complex, Jessica's self-destructive, self-hating behaviour as well as her stalkerish tendencies, Danny's naiveté, Luke's tendency to run away from problems (he really needs a new flaw when he turns up again), Tony's inferior complex, which he covers by acting overly brash, Thor's arrogance, Peter Quill's immaturity feed by a trauma in childhood, Steven Strange's desire to control everything in his life including time, Scott Lang's impulsive behaviour, all those are flaws (or potential flaws...sometime a character trait can be both a good and a bad thing) which are established more or less from the get go. Riri has been around for some time. So if you aren't able to describe her character as more than "yeah, she is kind of a technical genius", she does fail the Mary Sue test.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#70917: May 21st 2017 at 4:41:54 AM

All those aspects can be seen as good character traits (we are talking about Captain America after all), but they also can be character flaws in specific circumstances.

Those flaws, however, need to be acknowledged by the narrative as flaws, which I've yet to see with Steve in the MCU which can also be applied to a mary sue. As I said, Riri is still a new character.

All in all, I agree with whoever said the term mary sue is really just a term that has just lost all meaning

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#70918: May 21st 2017 at 5:14:27 AM

Pardon my dramatics but What is wrong with Marvel writers when it comes to the Hulk?
Because the Hulk usually doesn't kill people, even when he goes into his famous Hulk rages. Him killing people is a later retcon by people who thought it was impossible for Hulk to have zero casualties, but that was then retconned away due to Unfortunate Implications (like Banner being okay with killing innocent people, instead of going into a perpetual Heroic BSoD). I'll admit, the whole "Banner unconsciously does math so that the Hulk doesn't kill people" is very goofy, but a) it allows the whole "Hulk hasn't killed people" thing to happen and b) it's comics, they are inherently goofy.

I'm no fan of Mark Millar but when he had the most honest take on the character you know something is wrong.
Millar's Hulk was a cannibal rapist. That's taking things way too far in the other direction.

edited 21st May '17 5:16:43 AM by alliterator

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#70919: May 21st 2017 at 5:19:51 AM

I'd say all this just proves what a mess the Hulk is as a character.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#70920: May 21st 2017 at 5:28:16 AM

Look, it's very simple: the Hulk started out as a gray-skinned brute that Bruce Banner turned into whenever it became night, because, uh, gamma radiation. But then a few issues later, he was totally a green-skinned dude that Bruce Banner became whenever he got angry. And even though he was totally angry, he also just wanted to be left alone, but also he got mad all the time, sometimes even turning into the Hulk from thinking about rainbows (totally not kidding). And then the Hulk helped found the Avengers, but then he left after an issue because he totally thought they didn't like him. And then Doctor Strange tried to find a home for him by sending him through the mystical Crossroads and he got married, but then his wife died and then he got a TV show and then Bruce Banner's mind actually got control of the Hulk but then he didn't and then Rick Jones was the Hulk and then Bruce Banner got the Hulk back, but then it was the gray-skinned brute again who became a Las Vegas enforcer and then he got married and then there were many different Hulks who combined into one called the Professor but then he was just another Hulk and then his wife died and then the Hulk was shot into space and became a gladiator and got married, but his wife died (again) and then he came back to Earth and tried to get revenge but then there was a Red Hulk who "cured" Banner of the Hulk but then the Hulk turned out to have two sons, one evil and one...not evil, and then he trained his not evil son, Skaar, to fight the Hulk even though he wasn't the Hulk anymore and then he turned back into the Hulk and then a bunch of heroes got Hulked out and then Banner decided to inject himself with Extremis in order to control the Hulk and turned into another Hulk called Doc Green and then he absorbed a bunch of radiation, but Amadeus Cho was able to take it out of him and become a totally awesome Hulk, curing Banner again, but then everyone thought the Hulk would return and kill everyone so Hawkeye shot Banner with a special Hulk-killing arrow and that's what you missed on Glee.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#70921: May 21st 2017 at 5:31:27 AM

Simple.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#70922: May 21st 2017 at 5:52:37 AM

[up][up][up]Not much moreso than any other comic character. If you want a real mess I'd like to introduce you to my good friend Hawkman.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#70923: May 21st 2017 at 6:36:25 AM

Hey, you said Hawkman but that's an angel

What gives?

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#70924: May 21st 2017 at 6:42:30 AM

This is partly a Characterization Marches On issue. Original Hulk was more of a grumpy rough (but still reasonably intelligent) guy. Famously, Earth's Mightiest Heroes uses this interpretation. He later morphed into essentially a rage elemental who destroys wantonly.

If you ask me, it's absurd that the Hulk never killed anyone.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#70925: May 21st 2017 at 7:00:01 AM

I can believe he's never murdered anyone

I think probably a lot of superheroes may have some bystanders on their ledger

You don't have giant battles in the middle of a city without. Also I assume some mooks died from being punched in the head the wrong way or by getting blasted

The genre doesn't want to dwell on that though. Total realism isn't necessarily the goal. If they want to say Hulk never killed anyone specifically because bullshit math, fine. If Cyclops can profit from bullshit math so can the Hulk

Forever liveblogging the Avengers

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