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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#70851: May 20th 2017 at 2:07:23 PM

And killing them off because of petty reasons isn't too far?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#70852: May 20th 2017 at 2:08:05 PM

Nope. And there's Jarvis being an A.I. instead of a tubby British guy. But regardless saying RDJ just made him more comedic is kind of like saying the engine just makes the car run. It's a major part of what made the character appealing to so many viewers.

Seems to me like the arc reactor has always been in the comics in some capacity.

Aside from that and the humor, it seems everything else that made him compelling is from the comics. Even the humor was always there and it really isn't that impressive given everyone in the MCU is a snark bastard.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#70853: May 20th 2017 at 2:17:45 PM

And there's Jarvis being an A.I. instead of a tubby British guy
I mean, technically in the MCU, Edwin Jarvis does exist, only he's Howard Stark's butler. And he isn't tubby. And he's married. And he went on awesome adventures with Peggy Carter.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#70854: May 20th 2017 at 2:41:56 PM

[up][up]They're snarky because of RDJ. The first Iron Man movie basically set the tone of the whole MCU. You're underestimating the irresponsible quipster characterization in favour of 'everything else'. Everything else matters, but it's not what let Marvel raise the MCU tentpole.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#70855: May 20th 2017 at 3:04:07 PM

[up][up]And he didn't exist until 2015. When the movies began, JARVIS was a computer instead of a person, is the point.

[up][up][up][up]It wasn't. That's the point. It was just a chestplate with a magnet that kept him alive. It wasn't until the movie that they went back and did all that stuff about Arc Reactors.

And no offense but as for the humor, you seem to be purposefully trying to downplay that aspect to try and get the last word in. It was a pretty huge component of his portrayal in the movies.

edited 20th May '17 3:06:27 PM by comicwriter

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#70856: May 20th 2017 at 3:27:54 PM

Guess I just don't see it as being part of what made him compelling. We'll agree to disagree I suppose.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#70857: May 20th 2017 at 3:33:41 PM

Good thing the MCU introduced JARVIS

Imagine piloting a suit that complex without a computer. Imagine piloting a suit that complex without a computer that would backsass

Unthinkable...

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#70858: May 20th 2017 at 3:39:54 PM

I don't know how or worse a computer with a Texas accent.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#70859: May 20th 2017 at 3:54:13 PM

"That's silly. Wanting a character to die just because you don't like them isn't a good thing. "

is not a good thing but is something people see a lot in fandoms, hell people said dany should die so the mantle can be to the right person, killing the scrappy is something that happen

"But in terms of the MCU itself: We already had Ironman and War machine. And falcon."

they still have warmachine? I don thing he is going to come back after what happen to him in civil war, dosent it?

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#70860: May 20th 2017 at 4:32:08 PM

It'd actually be absurdly easy to bring him back if they wanted. I'm surprised they didn't already whip out the magic tissue-creation machine from Age of Ultron.

J79 Since: Jan, 2015
#70861: May 20th 2017 at 4:52:11 PM

So, i'm hoping that the post-Infinity War MCU films go on a smaller scale. We've had enough Earth/Universe threats like the Chitauri, Ultron, Ego, etc, lets get some villains who, while still major threats, are out to benefit themselves. Im thinking along the lines of Grey Gargoyle, Mysterio, The Wrecking Crew, Slug (though I dont know HOW you'd pull that off in live action), The Serpent Society, etc.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#70862: May 20th 2017 at 4:56:14 PM

I don't understand people who assume escalation fallacy is in play.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#70863: May 20th 2017 at 4:57:30 PM

[up][up][up]is and issue of dramátic moment, they "kill" warmachine without killing him and I feel if they return him to normal so far it would cheap the efect, even when the movie did a little bit in the end.

[up][up]yeah, they will have to go low key for a while

edited 20th May '17 4:58:01 PM by unknowing

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#70864: May 20th 2017 at 5:00:40 PM

I'm not really familiar with Riri Williams, but the thing that some people protesting the backlash about the "Mary Sue" term don't get, is that whether a character "fits it" or not is really beyond the point entirely. The term itself is just way too loaded with baggage to be particularly useful, all it does is derail conversations about whether a character fits it or not. Because it's so loaded, it tends to make conversations more adversarial or hostile which is counterproductive to a healthy discussion.

So, instead of using it as a lazy shorthand for a character you don't like, you should just say "I don't care for this character, I feel that they are poorly written because xyz".

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#70865: May 20th 2017 at 5:09:08 PM

@Unknowing

Yes, I was one of the people who had an idea for Danny being killed off, but not because I hated the character. More of an idea of passing on the Iron Fist legacy, nothing like saying "Grr I hate Ironheart and want her dead".

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#70866: May 20th 2017 at 5:11:19 PM

[up]She is pointless though. Most of the new characters introduced, even with skepticism applied, ended up well enough or returned to status quo (Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur need to show up in something). Ironheart...doesn't.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#70867: May 20th 2017 at 5:12:40 PM

And killing her off because you personally don't like her is preferable? It feels downright sadistic.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#70868: May 20th 2017 at 5:17:57 PM

Nothing is pointless if you can get good stories from it

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#70869: May 20th 2017 at 5:20:16 PM

She is pointless though
No, she isn't. She's a brand new character that has a completely different story and motivation than Tony Stark's.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#70870: May 20th 2017 at 5:27:49 PM

For the record: I'm not entirely opposed to Danny eventually dying, but killing him now doesn't work. He has just started his journey to become the Iron Fist. This would be like Luke passing the torch to Rey immediately after ANH.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#70871: May 20th 2017 at 5:30:07 PM

"More of an idea of passing on the Iron Fist legacy, nothing like saying "Grr I hate Ironheart and want her dead"."

the show wasnt even started and maybe it wasnt you but someone coment about the dead showing the stupidity of white man playing asian role, even them is pretty much "kill the chararter to cut this crap" in which Alley just propose a simpler route(make him luke parner and that it)

like other troper said, people dosent really want to kill the chararter just kick him out of the story to never return and death is easy way, is the issue with fiction a times.

"he term itself is just way too loaded with baggage to be particularly useful"

the term is also use for people who want to said they dont like the chararter but are too lazy to come out with engaging response, I dont like rey that much because while charming is a little bit bland and Korra was unlikable in season 2 but saying "she is a mary sue" is shorter and easier.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
MedusaStone Since: Jan, 2015
#70872: May 20th 2017 at 5:31:42 PM

I don't have a stake in this, but it seems to me that a big part of the problem with the 'X is a mary sue, they should die' argument is a lot of people (on both sides, granted) seem to state their opinion as objective fact. Which causes them to be very offended when someone disagrees with their statement. Which causes the conversation to turn very nasty, and before you know it folks on both sides are metaphorically screaming obscenities and throwing their own feces at each other. Which doesn't really accomplish anything, except making them and their chosen fandom look stupid to everybody else.

ExplosiveLion Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
#70873: May 20th 2017 at 5:34:13 PM

That's what I'm saying. I'm not using the term lightly. I'm using the term because she's a Mary Sue and I dislike her character because of that. That's what people here seem to misunderstand.

Also, I never said that they should kill her. Just fade her into obscurity.

Yes, I dislike her because she's awfully written. I dislike her because she's way too good at everything, always. I dislike her because she has no personality of her own, no struggle of her own. I dislike her because she represents everything I loathe about the whole "replacing beloved characters with alternative/hipper/younger versions of themselves". I dislike her because, for no reason whatsoever, Tony, the most possessive and protective dude on the planet, had no issue with her stealing his tech.

When done right, it's awesome (Kamala, Miles, maybe America Chavez, and she's a big maybe). But when done wrong, we get a character like Riri.

But hey, whatever.

She didn't hack into his private files, his files were leaked onto the internet by someone else.

Huh. I was pretty sure that she hacked and leaked those files herself. Can't find the comic to fact-check neither. Oh, well, my bad.

No, she isn't. She's smarter in some ways, less in others. For instance, Tony knows how to make an AI for his suit — which Riri needs, but can't make.

No, but she did reverse-engineered his tech, at age 15. While being at MIT. And not only succeeding, but making an armour that was vastly superiour than Tony's very first.

Being impulsive and obsessive doesn't make her exactly like Tony. For one thing, she isn't witty, she doesn't crack jokes all the time like Tony does and more often fails at doing any sort of witty dialogue (barring Bendis's usual Bendis-speak).

Well, it is Bendis Speak. Being witty is kind of the norm.

And god, I hate Bendis Speak.

Once again: she didn't steal Iron Man technology. She found the plans to the Iron Man suit online and created a crude version using materials "borrowed" from MIT.

Yeah, tell that to Tony, who has been dealing with people "founding" or "borrowing" or "being inspired by" his technology. The dude hates that other people use his tech, and I don't get why this kid is so special that he doesn't care.

Honestly, if you call her a Mary Sue, you'd have to call so many others Mary Sues, too.

Yeah, a lot of characters are Mary Sues. We're just not talking about them right now. We're talking about Riri, so...

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#70874: May 20th 2017 at 5:37:09 PM

Yes, I dislike her because she's awfully written. I dislike her because she's way too good at everything, always. I dislike her because she has no personality of her own, no struggle of her own. I dislike her because she represents everything I loathe about the whole "replacing beloved characters with alternative/hipper/younger versions of themselves". I dislike her because, for no reason whatsoever, Tony, the most possessive and protective dude on the planet, had no issue with her stealing his tech.

I don't really have an opinion on Riri Williams myself, but I don't think the issue is that you are being misunderstood. Because you could have just said all of this to begin with instead of calling her a Mary Sue and it would have led to a better discussion. See my earlier post about why it's not a useful term to apply to any character these days, regardless of whether it's appropriate or not.

edited 20th May '17 5:45:06 PM by Draghinazzo

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#70875: May 20th 2017 at 5:37:40 PM

Yeah Mary Sue is usually just a catch all for "female character I don't like" so I find it impossible to take seriously.

I don't understand people who assume escalation fallacy is in play.

I think Feige had said something about potentially trying more intimate movies after Avengers 4 and that they didn't feel any particular pressure to intentionally try to make things bigger. He cited the fact that the airport fight in Civil War is probably the biggest action scene they've done yet it's actually much smaller in scale and lower and lower in stakes than the final battles in Avengers and Age of Ultron.

edited 20th May '17 5:39:01 PM by comicwriter


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