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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

RAlexa21th Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer from California (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I <3 love!
Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer
#70826: May 20th 2017 at 11:11:58 AM

[up][up][up]Except Jon Snow, but let's move on.

Sometimes I want my favorite characters to die because I think it'd make a good story.

edited 20th May '17 11:12:57 AM by RAlexa21th

Continue writing our story of peace.
TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#70827: May 20th 2017 at 11:12:44 AM

Even if she were a bad character (and I'm not saying she is, I haven't read anything with her in it), I really don't like that sort of spiteful killing off of characters. I think it's better to try to improve the character or at worst just quietly retire them. It just seems petty to kill off characters simply because you don't like them.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#70828: May 20th 2017 at 11:14:41 AM

And calling her a Mary Sue is just one of those things that has lost all legitimacy. People call everyone a Mary Sue if they don't like them. Rey from Star Wars, Mabel from Gravity Falls, Korra from Legend of Korra, god knows how many comic book and anime characters, etc. The term has lost any meaning it ever had.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#70829: May 20th 2017 at 11:16:35 AM

Take that GOT watchers.
Except Game of Thrones is a book/series where Anyone Can Die (and often do) and most of the characters people hate enough to want dead are characters that they are supposed to find so evil as to want dead (see: King Joffrey, Ramsay Bolton).

Riri Williams is a super smart 15-year-old girl who invented her own crude Iron Man suit, but still needed help getting an AI and then ended up becoming a hero while Tony Stark was in a coma. A hero that has needed quite a bit of help, too (both from Tony's AI and from Pepper Potts). Hell, at the same time Riri was appearing, so was Nadia Pym, a super-smart teenage girl who made her own Pym Particles, invented her own Wasp costume, and ended up becoming a hero while her father (Hank Pym) was "dead." And she's not a Mary Sue either! Because both are well written characters with believable motivations and backstories.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#70830: May 20th 2017 at 11:18:23 AM

Wait, is Nadia Pym supposed to be like Hope from the MCU?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#70831: May 20th 2017 at 11:47:38 AM

Pretty much (Nadia is even Russian for "Hope"), except her mother isn't Janet van Dyne (instead, her mother was Hank's first wife, who had been kidnapped by the Russians — look it was the '60s, okay). Also, she's younger than the MCU Hope and is much more of a Genki Girl.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#70832: May 20th 2017 at 11:48:19 AM

Huh. That's kind of interesting.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#70833: May 20th 2017 at 11:50:06 AM

You should definitely read The Unstoppable Wasp. It's so very awesome.

edited 20th May '17 11:50:18 AM by alliterator

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#70834: May 20th 2017 at 12:00:25 PM

Gonna add that to the checklist.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#70835: May 20th 2017 at 12:02:21 PM

[up][up]So a comic version of MCU Hope, who is a heroic version of the MC 2 Red Queen.

Huh. Comics have a strange flow.

edited 20th May '17 12:02:38 PM by Beatman1

RAlexa21th Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer from California (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I <3 love!
Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer
#70836: May 20th 2017 at 12:03:47 PM

Ret-Canon

Same with Black Nick.

edited 20th May '17 12:04:31 PM by RAlexa21th

Continue writing our story of peace.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#70837: May 20th 2017 at 12:22:12 PM

As an outsider...Riri doesn't sound particularly interesting. I mean Kamala being a fangirl and struggling with cultural identity and having to learn to just be herself instead of trying to be her idol, all this sounds really interesting. Riri sounds like a less interesting version of Ironman (not that the comic version of Ironman even is that interesting, most of the stuff which made the character compelling came from the MCU).

But in terms of the MCU itself: We already had Ironman and War machine. And falcon. I am actually not in a hurry to see another hero flying around in some sort of body armour. And I am totally okay with watching the heroes which have been newly introduced during this phase for a while. If they get back the Fantastic 4, I want to see them and Silver Surfer. If they really have gotten their hands on Namor, I look forward to seeing him...perhaps not even as an hero but as an antagonist first. If the rights are not too entangled, I think the Savage Land are a property they should mine as soon as possible. Riri is pretty much on the bottom of my list of characters I am interested to see.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#70838: May 20th 2017 at 12:58:37 PM

not that the comic version of Ironman even is that interesting, most of the stuff which made the character compelling came from the MCU

Which is an adaptation of the comics. Seriously, they didn't just pull most of Tony's characterization from thin air. The only thing the movies invented was him being Ultron's creator instead of Hank Pym.

ExplosiveLion Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
#70839: May 20th 2017 at 12:59:33 PM

@The Riri thing

Wait, how is she not a Mary Sue?

  • She reversed engineered an Iron-Man suit, somehow hacking through Stark Enterprises private files and then building an suit that's vastly superior than Tony's first suit.
  • She's depicted as being smarter than Tony in almost everyway.
  • She has the exact same personality as Tony. Witty, impulsive, obssesive.
  • She begins her story being so good at everything that she somehow steals Iron-Man technology and not only is Tony cool with it (yeah, so much for character consistency), but he also mentors her and then throws her into her very own hero adventure without her struggling at all.

So, how's she not a Mary Sue again?

[up][up]

Kamala is the best, dude. She's the greatest of them all.

edited 20th May '17 1:03:50 PM by ExplosiveLion

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#70840: May 20th 2017 at 1:00:27 PM

[up][up]That's not true, at all. Tony's snarky, motormouthed and more comedic portrayal was generally not how he was written prior to the movie. Tony Stark in the comics was usually depicted as a much more serious, straight-laced businessman who responsibly runs his company.

The Bunny-Ears Lawyer stuff was mostly Downey, which funny enough made it back into the comics.

War machine. And falcon.

All black superheroes look alike, eh?

edited 20th May '17 1:02:59 PM by comicwriter

Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#70841: May 20th 2017 at 1:01:04 PM

[up][up]So let us undo the mistake then.

Anyway, Captain Marvel isn't due till 2019. We got a while.

edited 20th May '17 1:01:14 PM by Beatman1

ExplosiveLion Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
#70842: May 20th 2017 at 1:02:42 PM

[up][up]

He's always been like that in the comics, only way more subdued. I don't remember him being completely serious.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#70843: May 20th 2017 at 1:05:18 PM

No, he really hasn't. He might have made jokes, but not really any more than other heroes. Even if you watch the old 90's cartoon, he was much more serious and business oriented. His company was everything to him. He was not the type of dude to be goofing around and telling Pepper to run it for him because he finds Stark Industries boring. That portrayal largely originated in the movies.

Much like Star-Lord, who was also a more serious character before Chris Pratt came along and fucking rocked that part.

edited 20th May '17 1:05:53 PM by comicwriter

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#70844: May 20th 2017 at 1:07:34 PM

So the humor (which was always there just more subdued) and him creating Ultron were the only thing the films are credited for then.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#70845: May 20th 2017 at 1:15:06 PM

Nope. And there's Jarvis being an A.I. instead of a tubby British guy.

But regardless saying RDJ just made him more comedic is kind of like saying the engine just makes the car run. It's a major part of what made the character appealing to so many viewers.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#70846: May 20th 2017 at 1:15:07 PM

Based on the cartoon versions I know of him, I think the daddy issues are also new. The part which is from the comics is the womanizing.....

Thing is, MCU Ironman is a way more complex character than the versions we have seen beforehand.

edited 20th May '17 1:17:18 PM by Swanpride

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#70847: May 20th 2017 at 1:19:19 PM

She reversed engineered an Iron-Man suit, somehow hacking through Stark Enterprises private files and then building an suit that's vastly superior than Tony's first suit.
She didn't hack into his private files, his files were leaked onto the internet by someone else. She found them and built a crude Iron Man suit out of spare parts she stole from MIT.

She's depicted as being smarter than Tony in almost everyway.
No, she isn't. She's smarter in some ways, less in others. For instance, Tony knows how to make an AI for his suit — which Riri needs, but can't make.

She has the exact same personality as Tony. Witty, impulsive, obssesive.
Being impulsive and obsessive doesn't make her exactly like Tony. For one thing, she isn't witty, she doesn't crack jokes all the time like Tony does and more often fails at doing any sort of witty dialogue (barring Bendis's usual Bendis-speak). For another, she comes from an entirely different family background, having a mother and stepfather who supported her. Being "witty, impulsive, and obsessive" isn't the whole of Tony's personality either and they are different in many other ways.

She begins her story being so good at everything that she somehow steals Iron-Man technology
Once again: she didn't steal Iron Man technology. She found the plans to the Iron Man suit online and created a crude version using materials "borrowed" from MIT.

Honestly, if you call her a Mary Sue, you'd have to call so many others Mary Sues, too.

edited 20th May '17 1:21:14 PM by alliterator

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#70848: May 20th 2017 at 1:29:48 PM

Like I said, Mary Sue is nowadays just a meaningless term that's code for "I hate this character". Calling for the character to be flat out killed because you personally don't like her is disturbing and insulting.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#70849: May 20th 2017 at 1:59:57 PM

I get the sense that some of the people talking about Riri Williams haven't actually sat down and read through her introductory comics, since there seems to be disagreements about extremely fundamental aspects of her character.

I haven't so I won't comment on her character, but speaking generally I'll echo the sentiment that wanting a character killed off solely because you don't like them (even if you have sound reasons for doing so) is a rather horrifying stance to take.

edited 20th May '17 2:00:15 PM by Falrinn

Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#70850: May 20th 2017 at 2:05:40 PM

[up]No, that's wanting to see fictional characters suffer or engage in some other sort of sick torture porn because you hate them. That's a bridge too far IMO.

Most rational people who dislike characters just want the fictional character written out. Usually, in comic books, that means death.


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