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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#70476: May 12th 2017 at 6:45:11 PM

Thomas Jane was a great Punisher.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#70477: May 12th 2017 at 6:46:38 PM

Jon Bernthal is better though.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#70478: May 12th 2017 at 6:48:47 PM

They play different Punishers. Bernthal's is more emotional, traumatized and full of anger, whilst Jane plays him as more emotionally dead inside, stone-cold and ruthless.

Bernthal is pre-Ennis and Jane is Ennis Punisher, in essence.

edited 12th May '17 6:49:16 PM by Gaon

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#70479: May 12th 2017 at 6:49:34 PM

Thomas Jane was a great Punisher.
Jane's movie was merely okay, but his short film, Dirty Laundry, was awesome.

edited 12th May '17 6:50:15 PM by alliterator

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#70480: May 12th 2017 at 6:53:22 PM

Thomas Jane is still my favorite Punisher, but Bernthal was a very close second. It's very close. Bernthal has a few of my all-time favorite Punisher scenes, but I more consistently enjoy Jane's.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#70481: May 12th 2017 at 6:55:41 PM

I should watch the 2004 Punisher sometime to compare Jane with Bernthal, but I remember a friend of mine showed me the Dirty Laundry short at college once. Great short.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#70482: May 12th 2017 at 6:59:37 PM

Speaking of all-time favorite scenes, maybe I'm just riding the GOTG 2 hype train still, but I think the scene set to Come a Little Bit Closer might be my new favorite scene in the entire MCU.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#70483: May 12th 2017 at 7:06:29 PM

@Tobias

While you're kind of here, wasn't it you who said you disliked Netflix Kingpin/Fisk? I have no idea how it came up but I am relatively certain it was you who said you found him non-threatening and whatnot.

I've not seen Netflix Daredevil. I just know they combined two awesome things - Vincent D'Onofrio and Wilson Fisk - but you made it sound like he was an incompetent loser in the series.

Been thinking about watching the series is all. I have a new Netflix subscription and all.

edited 12th May '17 7:07:06 PM by Nikkolas

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#70484: May 12th 2017 at 7:07:13 PM

You should absolutely watch it.

And Kingpin is really good.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#70485: May 12th 2017 at 7:15:24 PM

Yeah, that was me. Netflix Fisk is an incompetent moron with outrageous murder Tourettes who largely self-destructs while Murdock is nearby. The only thing threatening about him is his pocketbook. He doesn't plan, he doesn't scheme, he just conveniently happens to have bribed everyone in every scene he's in.

The second season introduced the Punisher and Elektra while increasing Stick's role so that they could deal with the villains while Murdock is nearby.

edited 12th May '17 7:16:27 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#70486: May 12th 2017 at 7:15:29 PM

Tobias took issue with the fact he isn't the cerebral powerhouse of the comics. DD in general has a tendency to build things up as origin stories for characters, so everyone tends to start lacking their traditional traits and slowly get up to their usual selves. Punisher, Murdock and Fisk all follow that path.

PS: Murdock is also the true villain of Daredevil according to everyone who isn't me in this forum.

edited 12th May '17 7:16:23 PM by Gaon

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#70487: May 12th 2017 at 7:28:46 PM

[up][up]I think that's an incredibly simplistic and almost insultingly inaccurate way to look at it.

Kingpin's greatest nemesis is his own temper and hubris, yes, but it's not as if Daredevil can just sit there and let him self-destruct to win; he came within mere seconds of getting away with his killing-Owlsley outburst and was only foiled by Murdock and pals doing a shitload of auditing just in time.

And he's not just an idiot who only knows how to bribe people; after the car door incident in Episode 4 he's not only able to rebound from that and cover it up with just words and subterfuge, but continue to spin it to get what he wants (the Russian mob's destruction). And then there's his public debut at just the right time to intercept the efforts of anyone investigating him.

The biggest power he possesses is his wallet, yes, but saying he has no scheming ability to complement that is just flat-out wrong.

edited 12th May '17 7:32:10 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#70488: May 12th 2017 at 7:29:23 PM

Eh, me, my favorite Punisher is the Bernthal Punisher. That Punisher...well, he came off as the most human of the Punishers and considering how inhuman the Punisher can get, I'd like a strong reminder that he was just some normal dude before he became the Punisher.

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#70489: May 12th 2017 at 7:46:58 PM

I thought Fisk improved significantly in Season 2, but I still debate over his effectiveness in the first season. Like, I loved the character stuff behind him, but at the same time he just doesn't feel like, well, the Kingpin.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#70490: May 12th 2017 at 7:51:57 PM

Like I said, it's his origin story. The first season is Fisk slowly becoming the man who would be called the Kingpin.

There's one particularly clever moment that highlights this: During Fisk's ride at a police truck, he muses on how he always (i.e throughout the first season) thought about the good samaritan parable, and always thought he was the samaritan in it, the man who helps the one in need. And then he realized that no, he isn't. He is the ill intent that causes the man to be in need. Later on he fights Murdock and observes that this city does not deserve to be saved, it deserved to drown in its own filth.

It's in moments like this you can see the Kingpin rise, and the second season solidifies this. He's angry and rash in the first season because he thinks he's the hero and the world is wronging him. When he entirely abandons those notions he starts to become a much more ruthless man.

To be honest, while I've always valued Tobias's opinion in almost any subject, I've always had a bit of a disconnect with him when it comes to Fisk ever since he suggested for Fisk to be raped in prison to "toughen him up" so he can become the comic book character. That's just not right.

edited 12th May '17 7:54:03 PM by Gaon

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#70491: May 12th 2017 at 7:55:18 PM

Why do I have the feeling that sounds incredibly out of context...

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#70492: May 12th 2017 at 7:55:33 PM

I felt [up][up][up] that way at first, but I felt like they made it work by the end. I'm only a fan of a season-long origin story if they can make it work, which I think they did here. Wilson Fisk had the perfect plan— he didn't need to scheme, because he'd already schemed. Then we saw his season-long Villainous Breakdown, and I found that very satisfying, someone who'd gone to such lengths to be anonymous and untouchable, forced out into the open and ruined. That all worked for me.

Plus I liked how badly his perception of himself— as the hero Daredevil couldn't be, the man who would actually cure the city no matter the cost— was eroded over the course of the show. That story [up][up] is a great moment, the moment where the gloves come off and the real man, shorn of any sense of guilt or obligation, is allowed to shine through at last.

edited 12th May '17 7:56:02 PM by Unsung

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#70493: May 12th 2017 at 7:59:23 PM

Why do I have the feeling that sounds incredibly out of context...

I mean if it is I'd really like for Tobias to correct me because I have no ill will towards him and I would consider him a friend if we interacted more often. If I'm misrepresenting what he said, I apologize profusely, it's just how his post at the time came across to me.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#70494: May 12th 2017 at 8:44:58 PM

To be honest, while I've always valued Tobias's opinion in almost any subject, I've always had a bit of a disconnect with him when it comes to Fisk ever since he suggested for Fisk to be raped in prison to "toughen him up" so he can become the comic book character. That's just not right.

I don't recall ever saying that, and it sounds incredibly OOC for me, being the extremely vocal feminist that I am.

Like, I'm usually the first to go, "Wow, that's kinda rapey, I'm not okay with this," in a story.

Like, even if you were willing to credit the idea that prison rape "toughens someone up", that's stupid. Fisk's problem isn't that he's not tough. It's that he's an idiot.

edited 12th May '17 8:45:41 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#70495: May 12th 2017 at 8:46:26 PM

I'm thinking it might've been somebody else who made a comment like that? Then again this is already quite the odd diatribe.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#70496: May 12th 2017 at 8:49:53 PM

I distinctly recall it being you, Tobias. That's some Mandela effect shit. My mind seems to be playing tricks on me.

Well I apologize either way, carry on.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#70497: May 12th 2017 at 8:51:59 PM

I get that Fisk is still in progress to becoming the Kingpin we all know but it feels like it's taking longer than it should to get there.

This song needs more love.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#70498: May 12th 2017 at 8:52:00 PM

It really doesn't sound like something I'd say, but I apologize if I did, 'cause that is some f*cked up shit to say about anyone.

I can be pretty crass from time to time, but saying that someone should get raped is, like...if that's not a bannable offense, it should be.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#70499: May 12th 2017 at 9:21:22 PM

That sounds like something Snyder would say...

Anyway, I agree that Kingpin in the first season was problematic, simply because Wesley seemed to be more threatening and dangerous than him.

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#70500: May 12th 2017 at 9:41:42 PM

"That sounds like something Snyder would say..."

And why do you think that?

edited 12th May '17 9:42:05 PM by Nikkolas


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