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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#70176: May 7th 2017 at 6:28:38 PM

I agree with you and have argued that point many a time, with the general answer I get being escapism. A lot of people who read about superheroes want them to be escapist figures. Larger than life entities who act solely in accordance with their higher calling.

I've seen a lot of people uncomfortable with the idea of superheroes even just accepting a paycheck for their work, because the Escapist Superhero is supposed to be a figure of absolute virtue who expects no compensation or reward for his generous actions.

And then there's the expectation of unyielding moral superiority, or as Cap put it in the Civil War movie, "We can't work for other people because we know better than them. We are automatically right in everything we say and do, and bending our absolute morality to fallible human beings who might make bad choices or be evil would basically just make us supervillains."

Paraphrased a little. Point is, being professional heroes goes against the entire notion of the Escapist Superhero.

edited 7th May '17 6:31:15 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#70177: May 7th 2017 at 6:30:42 PM

Tobias is right. Superheroes are vigilantes and not cops. It is fundamental trope of the superhero genre.

"Mai waifu."
Cross (Don’t ask)
#70178: May 7th 2017 at 6:31:48 PM

This is why I like MHA.

edited 7th May '17 6:32:12 PM by Cross

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#70179: May 7th 2017 at 6:33:00 PM

Yeah nobody is saying you can't tell interesting stories about cops. What they're saying is the majority of people who read or watch superheroes do so because they want something different out of them than they do out of cop stories. Most superheroes as a whole tend to have an anti-authority bent to them, since their mere existence acknowledges that the law enforcement system doesn't work or can't go as far as it should.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#70180: May 7th 2017 at 6:33:09 PM

I mean, you have the heroes from One Punch Man who both get paid for their work and also generally want to help people, like best hero Mumen Rider.

[up] Yes, because most law enforcement would be able to deal with people like Magneto, or Dr. Doom, or the Green Goblin, or Dormammu, or Shuma Gorath, or Loki, or Thanos...

edited 7th May '17 6:36:27 PM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#70181: May 7th 2017 at 6:39:59 PM

[up]The police can handle Magneto and Thanos.

edited 7th May '17 6:40:20 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#70182: May 7th 2017 at 6:40:58 PM

If those were the only sorts of threats superheroes fought, then yeah. But a good chunk of stories still deal with real world threats that normal authority figures are depicted as being incapable of doing anything about.

Hell the big dynamic entry scene in the first Iron Man movie is Tony intervening in a conflict in the Middle East where it's explicitly said U.N. peacekeepers are utterly powerless to help. Then Tony shows up in his shiny robot suit and solves the problem in about 40 seconds by murdering a bunch of filthy terrorists with his sweet new toys.

edited 7th May '17 6:41:57 PM by comicwriter

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#70183: May 7th 2017 at 6:47:13 PM

Of course, because the UN is obviously known for having armies of high-tech metal suits capable of flight and shooting concussive force in the form of lasers.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#70184: May 7th 2017 at 6:48:40 PM

The idea is easy enough to understand. Politics are an ever-changing thing. Today's friends are tomorrow's enemies. It's not about what's right, it's about what's convenient. People don't want to think of their superheroes being so....compromising, basically.

We don't need to get into real life politics to know that the UN has a lot of problems, and is perceived as having even more problems by many. People don't want to think of their icons of justice listening to a group like that.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#70185: May 7th 2017 at 6:50:45 PM

[up][up] You don't need robotic suits of armor to fight terrorists, is the point, just like you don't need superheroes to stop muggers, pimps, rapists, drug lords or corrupt politicians, yet those problems run rampant. The situation put forth is that the people who should be doing something to save people from terrorists can't or won't do so because of political red tape, so Tony Stark has to step outside the law and do it for them.

That is, at its core, the basis for most superhero fiction. Someone breaking the law to stop bad guys who the cops or government or military or some other authority figure should be stopping, but can't or won't for whatever reason.

It's the same reason the Cowboy Cop trope was so explosively popular in the 80's and early 90's (before people took a decidedly negative view of police violating people's civil liberties). People liked the idea of cops going the extra mile to stop scumbags who would usually be protected by the law.

edited 7th May '17 6:58:09 PM by comicwriter

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#70186: May 7th 2017 at 6:53:33 PM

"You shouldn't have killed my mom and squished my Walkman."

THAT WAS AWESOME!

My various fanfics.
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#70187: May 7th 2017 at 6:58:13 PM

I mean, the UN in real life also has trouble dealing with terrorist organizations; that's not incompetence, that's the terrorists actually being a threat like they are in real life.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#70188: May 7th 2017 at 6:59:38 PM

And there are famously many situations where they don't do anything at all because they can't agree on anything or don't want to do anything because they think it might be politically volatile.

The same way terrible people around the world get away with stuff because it'd be too inconvenient or politically dangerous for someone to go stop them. That is, again, the point. The system isn't working, so someone steps outside the system and stops the bad guys. That's the basic catharsis behind superheroes in a nutshell.

edited 7th May '17 7:02:46 PM by comicwriter

RAlexa21th Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer from California (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I <3 love!
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#70190: May 7th 2017 at 7:01:37 PM

@One Punch Man: One of my favorite things about that series is that the heroes actually are sanctioned by the government and seem to operate as a type of special forces team. I know many people hate the idea but I wouldn't mind if more comic books adopted that idea. You can still have vigilante heroes but some people like Captain America make more sense if they're working for Shield or some other official agency.

While it's true that the government's priorities and such change that can also be used to cause tension. I know Captain America has had a bunch of stories where he disagrees with the actions of the government and struggles with what side to take.

Cross (Don’t ask)
#70191: May 7th 2017 at 7:03:41 PM

OPM isn't the best example since it's made clear the system sucks.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#70192: May 7th 2017 at 7:06:53 PM

It really only sucks because Saitama exists; any form of scaling threats or hero rankings gets thrown out the window when there's a man who can solve literally every threat in one punch.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#70193: May 7th 2017 at 7:09:40 PM

I think the newbie stomping is also kind of a sucky point.

Or how the association can't really control a lot of the S ranks like Tornado or I think it was Metal Knight

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Cross (Don’t ask)
#70194: May 7th 2017 at 7:10:30 PM

[up][up]That's not what I meant, and even then that's still a byproduct of the Hero Association's stupidity.

[up]Pretty much, plus we have the glory hounds.

edited 7th May '17 7:12:45 PM by Cross

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#70195: May 7th 2017 at 7:11:32 PM

Japan is also a country that has far less emphasis on individualism than the west, so there isn't as much emphasis on portraying authority figures as incompetent or impotent. In fact in many of the superhero shows I can think of (particularly with Toku or magical girl stuff), the police are usually supportive and actively try to help the heroes. They're just badly outgunned.

Whereas in western superhero works, the cops are usually depicted as being absolutely fucking useless, if not an active threat to the heroes. (With exceptions being people like Joe from the Flash or of course, Commissioner Gordon.)

edited 7th May '17 7:13:19 PM by comicwriter

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#70196: May 7th 2017 at 7:11:57 PM

I mean, Snek also had enough development to try fighting a monster he knew he wouldn't be able to win against, just to help distract it enough for more civilians to escape from it and the other monsters, at least in the manga anyway; don't know if the webcomic led to him doing the same.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#70197: May 7th 2017 at 7:12:40 PM

Or how people like whatsherface or Angel Mask camp at the top of a rank to bottleneck advancement.

It has a lot of problems divorced from Saitama.

Has some good points too.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#70198: May 7th 2017 at 7:14:46 PM

One Punch Man isn't perfect but that's mostly because it's a show about a Dragon Ball Z hero in a more conventional superhero setting. There's a different threat scale being used than the Avengers.

edit: My basic point is that I would not object to the Avengers being a sanctioned government organization. The original comics had elements of this with them struggling to obtain government clearances and maintain a good relationship with the US. The MCU originally had elements of this with them being an outgrowth of Shield but that element was dropped pretty quickly.

edited 7th May '17 7:16:57 PM by Kostya

Cross (Don’t ask)
#70199: May 7th 2017 at 7:15:41 PM

I like how MHA handles it, but at the same time I think only works since majority of the population have Quirks.

Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#70200: May 7th 2017 at 7:17:16 PM

Also, Metal Knight, who is an objectively horrible person and an even more horrible hero, is kept around as an S-rank because he's occasionally useful.


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