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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#70151: May 7th 2017 at 1:55:01 PM

They didn't, like, invade Russia or anything. They traveled there, fought amongst themselves, and then left. There was no harm done to the country.

Everything in Age of Ultron would be a much better case to show the Avengers run amok.

edited 7th May '17 1:56:14 PM by Nikkolas

ExplosiveLion Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
#70152: May 7th 2017 at 2:29:55 PM

[up] If my neighbours rabid dogs started to fight in my backyard, I sure as hell would make sure that those dogs are controlled. And, if they cannot be controlled, I'd go to my Neighborhood Council to ask them to put down certain rebellious dogs using the "Chihuaha Accords" document that Ms. Ross kindly put together for us neighbours.

Also, the Accords where made to not only regulate, but also control and use the Avengers as the U.N. pleased.

The Accords are like punching a tiger in the face and expecting it to behave.

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#70153: May 7th 2017 at 4:14:32 PM

Well Thor is like, a god of a different dimension so he shouldn't really care what the UN thinks.

Speaking of which, what the hell are the MCU Asgardians? Ragnarok, as in the myth, isvery mystical and if you're talking prophecies and predestination, that's also very mystical.

But, while it has been a long time since i saw the movie, I am certain Thor explains that the Asgardians are just sufficiently advanced extradimensional aliens. But with Strange in the mythos now, magic must exist.

I haven't seen Dark World but the whole Asgard/Midgard/Nine Realms stuff is apparently just not really well-explained anywhere.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#70154: May 7th 2017 at 4:34:38 PM

Thor explains it pretty succintly in the first movie (slightly paraphrased): "I come from a place where science and magic are one and the same."

So, Magitek.

If Thor was just a highly advanced alien he could not wield a hammer that works measured on worthiness.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#70155: May 7th 2017 at 5:03:41 PM

They're not afraid to explain some facets of Asgard as being technological, but there are some aspects that undeniably aren't. Sufficiently Advanced Aliens with Magitek.

Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#70156: May 7th 2017 at 5:11:19 PM

My general understanding of magic in the MCU is that it is scientific, but only in the sense that it operates on predictable rules.

However humans in the MCU are thousands of years away from actually being able to parse out the fundamental properties of, for example, Thor's hammer that prevent anyone "unworthy" from lifting it.

edited 7th May '17 5:11:58 PM by Falrinn

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#70157: May 7th 2017 at 5:14:42 PM

Clearly what humanity needs is a visionary to lead a team of "heroes" into Asgard and liberate all that technology for the uplifting of the human race.

edited 7th May '17 5:15:08 PM by Nikkolas

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#70158: May 7th 2017 at 5:20:41 PM

That only works with technology, though. Doing that with magic tends to lead to some very dangerous ancient curse type of shit.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#70159: May 7th 2017 at 5:22:58 PM

Counterpoint: two-and-a-half minutes to midnight.

While it would be nice if Asgard could share some kind of advancements in clean energy and water, maybe some high-yield crops or something, if they were to tip the balance with weapons, I suspect we'd be more likely to all kill each other than uplift ourselves anywhere. That or we turn into the Imperium of Man. Maybe with a Golden Age thrown in there, maybe not.

edited 7th May '17 5:25:39 PM by Unsung

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#70160: May 7th 2017 at 5:24:31 PM

That could make for an interesting story, too.

Seriously though, from "realpolitik" perspective, you would think there's somebody somewhere who knows about the wonders of Asgard and is pissed off Thor isn't handing out miracle cures. Doesn't matter if he doesn't have them, he has better stuff than us so somebody somewhere wants it because they're paranoid or think it could be used to help build a superweapon or something along those lines.

If only we could control the Asgardians and secure human dominance in the galaxy....

edited 7th May '17 5:27:46 PM by Nikkolas

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#70161: May 7th 2017 at 5:25:20 PM

Why would he have miracle cures? He's not even the same species as us.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#70162: May 7th 2017 at 5:25:26 PM

Well they probably do but they have no way of reaching him. Bifrost's the only known way of accessing Asgard and that is under the control of the Asgardians.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#70163: May 7th 2017 at 5:29:44 PM

They tried to force him to register and sign on with the government after Civil War in the comics and it didn't end well. By which I mean it ended gloriously.

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#70164: May 7th 2017 at 5:29:47 PM

[up][up][up] I wasn't trying to portray the hypothetical xenophobe as rational. I just meant their argument would be something like "if they're on our side, if this Thor is a true hero, why hasn't he shared his wonders with us?" They wouldn't come right out and say "why haven't they given us weapons?"They have to phrase it as a humanitarian issue.

edited 7th May '17 5:31:04 PM by Nikkolas

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#70165: May 7th 2017 at 5:41:42 PM

[up][up] Eeyup. That was during the time span of a couple years after Civil War where basically every writer was pissed off that Marvel let this happen and voiced their protest by having whatever character they're writing beat the shit out of Iron Man for 22 pages.

Everyone did it. Thor's the only one that ever gets brought up, but seriously, you couldn't go two weeks without someone beating up Iron Man.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#70167: May 7th 2017 at 5:43:39 PM

[up][up] Maybe that's just what Iron Man deserves.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#70168: May 7th 2017 at 5:48:12 PM

That honestly sounds more petty than anything; you're taking your frustrations out on a fiction character that only did what he did because the higher-ups in the company you're working for allowed that shit to be done, instead of listening to anyone else who might have thought that Stark's role in the event was a bad idea.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#70169: May 7th 2017 at 5:49:20 PM

The thing that gets me with regards to the Marvel Thor is that, well, it's implied all the Norse mythology was based on the real Asgardians, who are essentially Ancient Astronauts. But especially the MCU Thor is a contemporary character, he's had some adventures as a warrior but it's in the recent past, nothing that indicates why the ancient Norse culture knew of him hundreds of years ago. With Odin it makes sense, as he is physically shown intervening in the Jotunheim invasion of Midgard and you could understand how the people would tell stories of this powerful being from another realm of existence, but Thor and Loki explicitly grew up after that time period and seemingly came to Earth for the first time in modern day. Thor himself is supposed to be the protector of humanity, something he doesn't start doing until now. It doesn't help either that Norse Mythology includes depictions of key events that were supposed to lead to Ragnarok.

The only answer that makes any sort of sense is that Ragnarok is cyclical, that the Thor of the modern day is a different Thor of the past. This is actually supported by some interpretations of Ragnarok.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#70170: May 7th 2017 at 5:49:29 PM

Tigra got shit on too, for being Stark's spy on Cap's team.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#70171: May 7th 2017 at 5:52:42 PM

People also really hated Stature for a bit for siding with the Pro-Reg heroes despite what they did to her teammates. Not nearly as much as Tony tho.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#70172: May 7th 2017 at 5:59:43 PM

That honestly sounds more petty than anything; you're taking your frustrations out on a fiction character that only did what he did because the higher-ups in the company you're working for allowed that shit to be done, instead of listening to anyone else who might have thought that Stark's role in the event was a bad idea.

Ironically, what allowed writers to do this was the same editorial policy that caused Tony's convoluted, often self-contradictory depiction in the first place: Joe Quesada's editorial policy, which amounted to "F*ck cross-title continuity."

He infamously refused to let the writers hammer out an actual version of the SHRA because he felt that having to abide by a specific depiction would hamper their creativity. His policy was that every writer should just write the thing in whatever way worked best with the story they wanted to tell.

So they did and thus the Iron Fuhrer and his jack-booted S.H.I.E.L.D. thugs were born. Because most of these people came here to write about escapist vigilantes, not super-cops. There were some comics that took this policy as a license to depict the SHRA and Pro-Regs as a positive force for good, but they were few and far between, heavily outweighed by the sheer volume of comics where the SHRA was the worst thing since Hitler.

EDIT: One writer notably even went so far as to have Iron Man forcibly mind-control the Green Goblin to stage the assassination of an Atlantean ambassador for the purpose of war profiteering. And Marvel let that happen, because Quesada told everyone to just write what works for their story and not worry about the big picture.

edited 7th May '17 6:02:31 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#70173: May 7th 2017 at 6:14:47 PM

I have yet to see a version of SHIELD that wasn't evil. This was not just a CW thing.

The last comic I read for Marvel was Illuminati: Life of Crime, which featured various supervillains being brainwashed into being peaceful prisoners who thought they were living normal lives inside their Truman Show prison.

There was also the business with Syn, another victim of SHIELD brainwashing, although that oneis more...interesting, from an ethical perspective.

edited 7th May '17 6:15:35 PM by Nikkolas

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#70174: May 7th 2017 at 6:18:24 PM

See above, re: most writers came here to write about vigilantes, not super-cops.

It's basically the Necessary Weasel of superhero fiction. Superheroes are only morally justifiable because they are necessary, and they are only necessary because law enforcement is corrupt, incompetent, or both. If a version of law enforcement existed in the setting that is upstanding and noble, never crossing any moral lines, while also being entirely capable of handling whatever villainy comes their way...well, that would be the end of superheroes, right there.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#70175: May 7th 2017 at 6:26:12 PM

Superheroes don't have to be vigilantes although few writers seem to be okay with this idea. You can still tell interesting stories about police officers and soldiers so I don't see why adding super powers into the mix would make them any less interesting.


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