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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#70076: May 6th 2017 at 10:29:40 AM

edited 6th May '17 10:30:09 AM by Nikkolas

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#70077: May 6th 2017 at 10:30:04 AM

[up][up][up][up]Maybe the Grandmaster abducted him. Or he ended up in a wormhole.

[up][up]That's what I'm saying.

edited 6th May '17 10:30:40 AM by comicwriter

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#70078: May 6th 2017 at 10:33:58 AM

As for the Punisher: There have been stories he kills thieves and there have been stories he killed children. But the children usually gets a lot of angst on his part and it's only when he has no other choice (i.e he's facing Child Soldiers).

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#70079: May 6th 2017 at 11:05:59 AM

From the way the scene is set up in the trailer, I'm figuring the fight happens because Thor gets a little too ahead of himself celebrating Hulk's arrival and then says something offensive.

Like:

  • "Finally, I can forget about these ridiculous games! I was almost worried - not that I wouldn't have won, of course."
  • <cue Hulk Death Glare>

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#70080: May 6th 2017 at 12:26:17 PM

So Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 is great, just like I thought the first one was. Not gonna say anymore than that.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#70081: May 6th 2017 at 12:34:02 PM

[up]Wokka wokka wokka wokka

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#70082: May 6th 2017 at 4:55:20 PM

Didn't he do self-imposed exile in this verse? My girlfriend told me Planet Hulk is going to be happening in the MCU.
We don't know how Banner found himself off-world. The movie hasn't come out yet. And even in the comic, Banner didn't exile himself, he was exiled by the Illuminati. In any case, Banner did exile himself before The Avengers, but Natasha convinced him to come in and then they all convinced him that he could use the Hulk for good. Which, let's be clear here, he did. He used the Hulk for good. It's just that when the Hulk was mind-controlled, he went on a rampage. And, let's also be clear: that was mind control.

Tony, on the other hand. created a new breed of lifeform. He had no knowledge of the forces with which he was messing and he most pointedly didn't care. Ultron was a rush job because Stark couldn't let things like "oversight" or "caution" stop him.
Except Tony wasn't done building Ultron yet. He hadn't built anything. Per the movie, the Ultron program wasn't anywhere near complete...but the AI that was in the Scepter took control of it and used it to build itself a body. Yes, Tony was responsible for letting loose the AI, but he didn't build the AI and he didn't know what would come of it. He certainly didn't program Ultron to try and kill everybody.

Stark is Dr. Frankenstein and Ultron is the monster.
No, he isn't. This metaphor only works if you don't know the actual story of Frankenstein's monster. Victor rejects his creation and continually runs away from him, even though his creation only wants love at first and then a companion. The monster kills Victor's fiance and friend out of revenge, but in the end, he finds himself still alone, even his creator dead. Frankenstein is all about taking responsibility for your creation, not about how Victor never should have created him.

I grew up on Buffy. I watched it ever since the first episode of season 1 debuted. I'm very proud of that fact. I can say I was there since the beginning.
Good, then you know that there were amazing female characters that had no superpowers. Willow in seasons one and two (before she became a witch), Cordelia, Anya, Joyce, Dawn, and more.

But I don't think Joss does women amazingly well. I wouldn't even care if he wasn' constantly held up as the paragon of liberal artists.
I don't think anyone here is holding him up as a paragon. There are plenty of problems with his writing. But the one problem you pointed out is one of the things I don't consider to be an issue with his work.

or maybe he was mad at his girlfriend for trying to kill him
She wasn't trying to kill him. She needed to Hulk, he didn't want to Hulk out, therefore she brought out the Hulk. He was pissed, he left, the end.

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#70083: May 6th 2017 at 5:23:16 PM

1. I know it was the Illuminati who sent Hulk into space in the comics. That's why I said "self-imposed exile in this verse" to contrast with the one where he was exiled by others. Professor Xavier is a jerk.

2. Two movies, two people who can mind control The Hulk. Maybe Banner learned his lesson even if you and Widow don't want to.

3. Yes, he only intended for it to control the world, not destroy it. He makes it very clear his vision of Ultron is a superpowered global police entity. This is not only unethical, it's hilariously stupid. Ultron is explicitly Tony's creation and this fact is brought up repeatedly. Scarlet Witch's line about Tony not being able to tell the difference between saving the world and destroying it is 100% spot-on. And before you say she's biased, Tony's friends actually agreed with her statement which is why they tried to stop him from making Vision.

4.That's an extremely bizarre interpretation of Frankenstein, a classic of the Romantic Movement which was in direct opposition to Enlightenment arrogance. Victor should not play god because he is not a god. The act of creating the monster was an act of extreme hubris and that's precisely what Tony was trying to do as well. He thought he could whip up a machine to fucking control affairs on a global scale.

Ultron is not unique in sci-fi. The story has been done to death. An AI that interprets its orders differently than intended is fairly common. Tony wanted a guardian for the Earth so he got Ultron, a being that identified human beings as a direct threat to the Earth.

5. It's nice to meet someone who likes Dawn. As a huge fan of BTVS Season 5, I'm glad we can agree on this much. Joyce was awesome too but...well, Season 5...The Body...never watching that episode ever again.

6. He Hulked Out precisely because she tried to kill him. That's kind of the point.It's no different than if she had shot Bruce in the head.

edited 6th May '17 5:23:55 PM by Nikkolas

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#70084: May 6th 2017 at 5:42:27 PM

And then it turns out that Vision was a good idea that helped save the world.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#70085: May 6th 2017 at 5:46:49 PM

Two movies, two people who can mind control The Hulk. Maybe Banner learned his lesson even if you and Widow don't want to.
Yeah, but that just means that they need Bruce to wear some sort of mind control blocking helmet. It's not Bruce's fault that he was mind controlled.

Yes, he only intended for it to control the world, not destroy it.
No, he intended to protect the world. He explained that he wanted a "suit of armor" around the world that would help in case any alien invasions happened. Unethical? Sure, but considering the vision he had from Wanda, not entirely surprising.

Scarlet Witch's line about Tony not being able to tell the difference between saving the world and destroying it is 100% spot-on.
I believe Wanda says that line about Ultron, not Tony, and then the others apply it to Tony. And the line is more a commentary on the fact that Tony rushes in without thinking of the consequences, not that he literally wants to destroy the world. Hell, he doesn't even want to control the world, he wants to protect it...but he still causes trouble by rushing in without the knowledge of what the AI was, which causes trouble. What I'm saying is: Tony has a lot of issues. But calling him the "father of genocide" is a bit much.

That's an extremely bizarre interpretation of Frankenstein, a classic of the Romantic Movement which was in direct opposition to Enlightenment arrogance.
It's actually a fairly common interpretation, because the book itself is ambivalent about whether or not Man should reach beyond the bounds of his grasp. On the one hand, Victor is punished for it, but on the other hand, the Arctic explorers in the frame story are called cowards when they want to turn around and go back. John Green goes more in depth on the meanings of Frankenstein in Crash Course. The book itself supports pretty much all interpretations — the Creature is called the Devil, but also "Adam," which means that Victor is God and so on. The Creature kills Victor's family, but in the end exiles himself to die as well. It's a complex book that can't be boiled down to "Science bad!"

Ultron is not unique in sci-fi. The story has been done to death. An AI that interprets its orders differently than intended is fairly common.
Except Ultron is not the normal unfeeling AI of science fiction stories. Ultron is more akin to a child have a temper tantrum and deciding to just destroy his room rather than clean it. Except his room is the Earth. Okay, it's not a perfect metaphor.

Joyce was awesome too but...well, Season 5...The Body...never watching that episode ever again.
"The Body" is the single most tearjerking thing I have ever seen. I cannot watch it without crying.

He Hulked Out precisely because she tried to kill him.
She knew he wouldn't die, therefore she wasn't trying to kill him. Plus, she just pushed him down a hole — even if he hadn't Hulked out, that wouldn't have killed it. Just, you know, kind of maimed him.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#70086: May 6th 2017 at 5:48:58 PM

Banner left because he doesn't like being the Hulk, and the one person he thought would understand that forced a change on him. He was already preparing to run when they were squatting in Barton's home. When he rescued Romanov, he noted that he wanted her to run with him like she'd offered to do earlier, and she responded by inducing the Hulk, the very reason he wanted to run in the first place.

So once the Hulk's business was done, he left without her. Of interest is that this scene also demonstrates how much control Banner has over his transformed state: it wasn't Puny Banner who piloted Ultron's Quinjet to the ends of the world and hung up on Romanov. It was Hulk Banner who made this conscious decision.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#70087: May 6th 2017 at 5:59:35 PM

[up] That's a good point. Fair enough, I'll drop that. I just want The Hulk to be dangerous because that, to me, is the entire point of The Hulk.

[up][up] You cannot protect something without controlling it. No one is saying Tony literally wantsto destroy the planet but, well, I was just reading this comic the other day. I loved this line and it applies quite well here.

If it wasn't clear, I loathe Tony Stark.I first read comics back in 2006, near the end of Civil War where Tony Stark was an authoritarian asshole. (a really bad one, which is the most offensive part) I don't think the movie version is all that dissimilar. (still waiting on clones to appear of his friends and murder other superheroes) Even still, I acknowledge "father of genocide" was hyperbole. Consider it the result of facepalming for 2 hours.

As for the rest, i saw all the debates in BVS. I know an argument with you will go on and on and on. I'm notsaying this to belittle you, I'm saying it because I simply have no interest in further debate on the topics in question. You actually completely skipped over my favorite part of my initial post.

What do you honestly think of the Civil War in Captain America: Civil War? Do youbenuinely believe it was in any way necessary? I contend that it was a needless subplot and the movie really boils down to Zemo, Stark and Rogers all have shitty pasts. I don't think it at any point really touched on the issues in the original comic.

edited 6th May '17 6:01:40 PM by Nikkolas

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#70088: May 6th 2017 at 6:03:20 PM

Secret Invasion was also his fault.

Because he gathered up a bunch of friends to go wave a big dick at the Skrulls after the Kree/Skrull War, got himself and all his friends captured, and helped the Skrulls learn undetectable shape-shifting and how to replicate powers.

His best intentions sure do frequently lead to disasters!

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#70089: May 6th 2017 at 6:09:32 PM

Also, I love Thor's backpedaling over his own misguided attempt at cheering up Banner.

  • Thor: The gates of Hell are filled with the screams of his victims!
  • Banner: (groans and buries his face in his hands)
  • Thor: Oh, but...uh...not the screams of the dead, of course. No no, mainly whimpering and tales of sprained deltoids and...uh...gout.

Gout. [lol] For those unaware, gout is basically a form of arthritis brought on by obesity.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#70090: May 6th 2017 at 6:17:10 PM

How is that a weird interpretation of Frankenstein? I've read the damn book, I'm pretty sure it's quite blatant in the message of being responsible with creation. That's like saying it's a weird interpretation that To Kill a Mockingbird is about racism.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#70091: May 6th 2017 at 6:25:23 PM

[up][up][up][up][up][up]hulk is not a second personality, is pretty much banner in a stage of rage, it clear in that moment he was taking control.

"I believe Wanda says that line about Ultron, not Tony, and then the others apply it to Tony. And the line is more a commentary on the fact that Tony rushes in without thinking of the consequences, not that he literally wants to destroy the world."

what wanda said is pretty much Ultron and by extention Tony main flaw: he is a control freak who thing he can manipulate every variable to make things sure, , not able to distingish between right and wrong mean that Tony is very capable of shady thing to ensure the greater good.

edited 6th May '17 6:35:19 PM by unknowing

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#70092: May 6th 2017 at 6:29:48 PM

[up] Exactly. The problem is not Tony or The Avengers' unilateral uses of force, it's more that they're really bad at their job. It takes a lot to govern the world and none of them are really up to the task.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#70093: May 6th 2017 at 6:38:35 PM

[up] "the movie really boils down to Zemo, Stark and Rogers all have shitty pasts."

pretty much, the acountability thing is just a backdrop to bro angst fest between this three and the movie it kinda manipulative in the way it present the debate with thing like using Ross(a strawman) leaving Wanda working with Ultron and battle in south africa and Tony stark pretty much go all batman with "MY PARENTS ARE DEAD!" against bucky and Cap.

is a good emocional film but it dosent do a good job with the debate at all.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#70094: May 6th 2017 at 6:47:00 PM

I agree with that assessment100%. They Wasted a Perfectly Good Plot is not a criticism I use often but it defines this movie.

Also a lot of fan blather didn't help, trying to misrepresent the movie as intellectually compelling.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#70095: May 6th 2017 at 6:51:13 PM

Huh. Guess my time machine does work, because it seems to be 2016 again.

Ready to talk about how average Doctor Strange was?

edited 6th May '17 6:52:40 PM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#70096: May 6th 2017 at 6:53:13 PM

[up][up] Just because you personally didn't like the movie doesn't mean people who did find it intellectually compelling are misrepresenting it. Lay off.

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#70097: May 6th 2017 at 6:54:38 PM

[up][up]That can't be right. New episodes of Dragon Ball and Samurai Jack are on tonight and the new Spider-Man movie is coming out soon. It's definitely 2002.

edited 6th May '17 6:54:52 PM by LordVatek

This song needs more love.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#70098: May 6th 2017 at 6:55:36 PM

Ready to talk about how bad the new Sam Raimi Spider-Man movie is gonna be, Vatek?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#70099: May 6th 2017 at 6:57:00 PM

It could be good, but I'm really not sure how I feel about Tobey Maguire as Peter.

This song needs more love.
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#70100: May 6th 2017 at 6:58:45 PM

[up][up][up][up] But the movie isn't about the civil war. That's just an objective fact. It's completely forgotten and goes absolutely nowhere.

It started off compelling, yeah. If fans think before Bucky is broken out of prison that there is moral ambiguity to everything, that's fine. But after that? What's there to argue or think about? I'm honestly asking.

edited 6th May '17 7:00:17 PM by Nikkolas


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