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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#70051: May 6th 2017 at 7:25:13 AM

I don't think that the contract Sony has for any of those properties allows crossovers.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#70052: May 6th 2017 at 7:37:46 AM

I do say the same thing about Batman. Usually, what he brings to the table is authoral overcompensation. "F*ck you, Batman's awesome, he just took down Green Lantern in one punch 'cause f*ck you, that's why."

Black Widow and James Bond do both overlap in the form of both being superspies, but the thing about Black Widow is that she actually has infiltration skills. Bond's version of spying involves name-dropping himself at every opportunity, being smarmy to make everyone want to punch him, and then fleeing the scene in a trail of explosions.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#70053: May 6th 2017 at 7:41:55 AM

@alliterator

1. You're not helping your case by pointing out how Banner is a mass of neuroses who also happens to have nigh-infinite strength. I'm aware of Fixit aka Mobster Hulk, as well as the times Banner's consciousness has been shut down completely and it was just a mindless thing that was unleashed on the world. The Hulk is a danger, always and forever.

2.I was making fun of a quote from Whedon about Punisher. The Hulk is a far greater evil than The Punisher ever is because he's far greater danger than Frank could ever be outside of What Ifs.

3. Ultron was a fucking joke. The final climactic fight had our heroes demolishing Ultron with ease, to the tune of comedy. Then Vision casually kills the final one in anticlimactic fair and boom, crisis averted. The Hulk was not necessary.

4. Who created Ultron? Who is explicitly likened to Ultron's fathr? What did Ultron come close to accomplishing? Tony Stark wanted to make a world-controlling AI, he created a world-destroying AI. Sounds like father of genocide to me.

edited 6th May '17 7:44:43 AM by Nikkolas

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#70054: May 6th 2017 at 7:52:32 AM

Is going from thread to thread looking for any excuse to complain about Whedon's Punisher your thing now? Because you tried to derail the Runaways TV show thread into a discussion about how much you hated Whedon's writing of the Punisher too .

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#70055: May 6th 2017 at 7:56:08 AM

...it is an aspect of Whedon I dislike, yes. Along with the several other paragraphs worth of commentary. Did you just ignore those and focus on literally one sentence?

edited 6th May '17 7:57:33 AM by Nikkolas

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#70056: May 6th 2017 at 7:58:17 AM

Well I mean your first post in this thread was coming in here to say how much you hate Joss Whedon because he supposedly hated Age of Ultron (which turned out to be a misconception on your part). That coupled with your other stuff (including the derailing in the Runaways thread) makes it seem like you've got some kinda obsessive hate thing for him going on.

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#70057: May 6th 2017 at 8:02:00 AM

Fair enough. Sorry if I sounded overly aggressive or defensive.

I wouldn't call it an obsession - more like I've just opened my eyes recently. Been paying more attention to his work, his ideas, his completely overrated level of talent. He's seen as a genius - a noble genius even, because giving women superpowers makes them strong female protagonists.

So, I guess I am on a bit of an anti-Whedon kick. But how can I be anything else when I watched two MCU movies and the one that he had nothing to do with, was infinitely superior?

edited 6th May '17 8:02:46 AM by Nikkolas

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#70058: May 6th 2017 at 8:28:43 AM

I mean, I disliked Age of Ultron as well, but it didn't engender a vendetta in me or anything.

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#70059: May 6th 2017 at 8:33:16 AM

Well these were the first MCU films I've watched in 5 years because of the first Avengers putting me off so completely. I don't deny I'm biased - I'm told constantly how amazing the MCU is and I've seen very little of any of that. It gets exasperating.

But I liked Thor and I liked Civil War so clearly my problem is mostly with Joss Whedon. The Buffy magic worked in Buffy because it was a teen drama. A coming-of-age story that just happened to have vampires and demons and cyborgs and sexy goddesses.

But for an "epic" story featuring a highly disturbed doctor, a World War 2 veteran, a god (that is actually just a sufficiently advanced alien? I dunno what's going on with Thor) and so-on, I don't think his type of writing works at all. Ultron is basically Whedon dialogue in one character. Split second he's funny, next split second he's (trying to be) scary. It's impossible to maintain a tone or emotional connection.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#70060: May 6th 2017 at 8:34:13 AM

I don't know about anyone else but Punisher having his spleen ruptured by Molly Hayes was one of the funniest things I've ever seen

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#70061: May 6th 2017 at 8:38:51 AM

[up] Punisher's War Journal: Hhhhhhh...

edited 6th May '17 8:50:53 AM by fredhot16

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#70063: May 6th 2017 at 8:47:29 AM

It ranks among the dumbest depictions of the Punisher because it features him attempting to murder children because they chatted with the Kingpin and are therefore obviously dangerous assassins or something - it's been a long time since I've read it - but it's definitely a hilarious moment.

And to be fair, there's really not a way to have the Punisher fight the Runaways that isn't going to be pants-on-head stupid. Let's You and Him Fight gets really, really uncomfortable when your protagonists are under the legal driving age.

edited 6th May '17 8:48:51 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#70064: May 6th 2017 at 8:51:23 AM

Though, the Punisher fights organized crime on a pretty regular basis, and don't a lot of those organizations start recruiting people when they're in their lower teens?

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#70065: May 6th 2017 at 8:51:57 AM

[up][up] It was Whedon's licensed hate-fic, nothing more. As such, OOC Frank makes sense.

edited 6th May '17 8:52:49 AM by Nikkolas

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#70066: May 6th 2017 at 8:53:55 AM

[up][up]Yup. He has a line where he says they wouldn't be the first teens he's killed. He regularly massacres drug rings and dealers as well, which tend to recruit young.

edited 6th May '17 8:54:43 AM by comicwriter

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#70067: May 6th 2017 at 8:54:15 AM

[up][up][up][up] Actually, it's two-fold:

A: He thinks they're working for the Kingpin.

B: They stole something. Theft is a criminal act. Jeez Louis, that's up there with Frank firing a machine-gun at people because they were littering. That's something a PARODY Punisher would do!

edited 6th May '17 9:00:29 AM by fredhot16

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#70068: May 6th 2017 at 8:57:56 AM

They're also the children of a sinister criminal cabal that attempted to end the world.

Don't remember if he knew that but that is the context for the book.

Still, it is hilarious. Especially since it cuts back to him later and he's still on the rooftop clutching himself in pain. Possibly wondering if he's going to pee blood later.

Shame the rest of Whedon's run didn't live up to that glorious high. It was overall kind of really stupid and I don't care for it at all.

edited 6th May '17 8:58:57 AM by Bocaj

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#70069: May 6th 2017 at 9:34:01 AM

You're not helping your case by pointing out how Banner is a mass of neuroses who also happens to have nigh-infinite strength.
Except there is a difference between a character who is child-like and a character who is a "beast of destruction." If the Hulk was the latter, he would always be rampaging and he isn't.

The Hulk is a far greater evil than The Punisher ever is because he's far greater danger than Frank could ever be outside of What Ifs.
Context matters. You compare the Hulk to an animal. Animals rampage and, occasionally, kill people. Humans, on the other hand, murder people. The Punisher has murdered waaaaaaaay more people than the Hulk has killed (even if you accept that the Hulk has killed people, the Punisher has murdered way more) and most of the Hulk's kills were accidental.

Ultron was a fucking joke. The final climactic fight had our heroes demolishing Ultron with ease, to the tune of comedy. Then Vision casually kills the final one in anticlimactic fair and boom, crisis averted. The Hulk was not necessary.
I loved the climax of the film. I thought it was great.

Tony Stark wanted to make a world-controlling AI, he created a world-destroying AI. Sounds like father of genocide to me.
No, it doesn't. Genocide is the "systematic killing of substantial numbers of people on the basis of their ethnicity, religion, political beliefs, social status, or other particularities." Ultron tried to commit genocide, yes. But Tony Stark never meant for that to happen. You don't blame Hitler's father because Hitler tried to commit genocide.

He's seen as a genius - a noble genius even, because giving women superpowers makes them strong female protagonists.
There are lots of women in Whedon's works that have no superpowers at all and he writes them as complex, interesting characters. People who say "Joss's female characters are just women with superpowers and that's it" are people who haven't actually seen Whedon's shows.

Also, the moment when Molly punchs the Punisher was fucking awesome.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#70070: May 6th 2017 at 9:55:23 AM

How would you compare it to the first GOTG? I hear it's more emotional this time around, and the more serious scenes were the strongest part of the first movie.

It's a bit of different beast this time. While there are scenes with bigger emotional hits, the flow of the plot is a lot quicker and more focused on the quirkiness of it, so it still feels like a more bombastic and high-action story even though it's doing things that are a bit weightier. Even the way it handles threats and such is very different, let's singularly driven and more a combination of several antagonistic plots firing at different times - reminded me a bit of Return Of The Jedi.

It does a better job of having its emotional moments have emotional fallout than most other superhero movies, though, despite being more on the lighthearted side overall. The movie has a lot of heart.

edited 6th May '17 9:55:35 AM by KnownUnknown

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#70071: May 6th 2017 at 10:12:30 AM

[up][up] 1. Fair enough, I concede Hulk is more child than animal.

2. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me fifty million times, shame on me. There can be no accidents when it comes to the Hulk killing people because everyone knows that the Hulk is unstable. Banner knows this more than anyone.

Didn't he do self-imposed exile in this verse? My girlfriend told me Planet Hulk is going to be happening in the MCU. So evidently, Bruce himself acknowledges he is nothing but a threat t oall mankind. That is something you could never say about Frank Castle.

3. When you create a child, you are doing nothing but creating a blank slate. Hitler's father was an asshole, by the way, but we can't say he engineered Hitler to be anything because that's not how human reproduction works.

Tony, on the other hand. created a new breed of lifeform. He had no knowledge of the forces with which he was messing and he most pointedly didn't care. Ultron was a rush job because Stark couldn't let things like "oversight" or "caution" stop him.

Ultron is clearly a Woobie, the results of an arrogant madman trying to play god. Stark is Dr. Frankenstein and Ultron is the monster.

4. I grew up on Buffy. I watched it ever since the first episode of season 1 debuted. I'm very proud of that fact. I can say I was there since the beginning.

But I don't think Joss does women amazingly well. I wouldn't even care if he wasn' constantly held up as the paragon of liberal artists.

edited 6th May '17 10:14:47 AM by Nikkolas

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#70072: May 6th 2017 at 10:20:14 AM

Banner's had the Hulk under control since Avengers. Since he came onboard with S.H.I.E.L.D., the only instances in which the Hulk raged out of control were both under the influence of mind-altering effects - Loki's scepter the first time, Scarlet Witch the second.

The mission in Sokovia that kicks off Age of Ultron demonstrates that they've been putting the Hulk into combat zones effectively in the interim. They even have a phrase for it: code green.

As for Planet Hulk, it's sort of happening in Thor: Ragnarok. But with Thor. Hulk shows up as one of the gladiators, but we don't know the extent of his involvement or why he's there. You probably shouldn't try to make debate points off of second-hand scraps of information regarding films that haven't been released.

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fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#70073: May 6th 2017 at 10:25:19 AM

[up] Me, I'm just wondering how the hell Banner got into space? Did he hitch a ride with Jello Man?

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#70074: May 6th 2017 at 10:25:59 AM

I was basing it off the end of AOU where he leaves everyone. He obviously didn't ditch them for the lulz. I figured maybe he realized what a trheat he was to every living human being, or maybe he was mad at his girlfriend for trying to kill him. That's still really fucked up. I brought up Hulk leaving to my girlfriend who said Planet Hulk was happening.

Also kinda fucked up that they just keep forgetting Betty exists. Again, Whedon doesn't get the Hulk.

edited 6th May '17 10:26:54 AM by Nikkolas

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#70075: May 6th 2017 at 10:27:17 AM

-checks calendar-

Huh. Didn't know it was 2015 again.

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