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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#69901: May 4th 2017 at 2:25:14 PM

How am I the one making it racist? Danny fits the Mighty Whitey trope, he humiliates an Asian woman and lectures her on how her kung fu is inferior to his, and it's in front of one of her students. From a Watsonian perspective it might make sense, but from a Doylists perspective, it's kinda iffy.

edited 4th May '17 2:25:31 PM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
RAlexa21th Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer from California (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I <3 love!
Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer
#69902: May 4th 2017 at 2:25:16 PM

Not all Asians know kung fu, or I would be Chun-Li right now.

edited 4th May '17 2:25:24 PM by RAlexa21th

Continue writing our story of peace.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#69903: May 4th 2017 at 2:26:01 PM

Nobody is saying all Asians know kung fu.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#69904: May 4th 2017 at 2:26:04 PM

[up] You'd be a better Chun-Li then the Chun-Li in that movie with Irish Commander Bison.

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#69905: May 4th 2017 at 2:27:00 PM

Can we not do this here? Please? Just....watch the whole show and then we can discuss it elsewhere.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#69906: May 4th 2017 at 2:27:26 PM

Adric, this is the thing. Wing doesn't fight Kung Fu. She fights Kendo, primarily. Her specialty is swordfighting.

Later in the season she lectures him on how shit his swordwielding is.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#69907: May 4th 2017 at 2:28:18 PM

OK, fair enough, two different styles. The scene is still kinda awkward regardless.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#69908: May 4th 2017 at 2:28:57 PM

Shows don't exist in a vacuum. You can't just put a disclaimer on your show that says Warning: This series is not racist. If you perceive any elements of questionable racial portrayal in this show, that's your problem, not ours. There's a bare minimum of self-awareness that's required in the present day, and that's just life.

And yes, Colleen's at her best with a sword, but she is also (at least according to the mockup website) supposed to know karate, kempo, and jujutsu.

edited 4th May '17 2:46:36 PM by Unsung

RAlexa21th Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer from California (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I <3 love!
Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer
#69909: May 4th 2017 at 2:30:01 PM

[up]That would just create stereotypes in the opposite way.

Continue writing our story of peace.
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
RAlexa21th Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer from California (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I <3 love!
Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer
#69911: May 4th 2017 at 2:33:06 PM

Hypothetically, if you are afraid of Psycho Lesbians stereotypes, yet you can portray straight girl as Yandere, that's just creating a stereotype about good lesbians.

Continue writing our story of peace.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#69912: May 4th 2017 at 2:33:40 PM

I don't think I follow.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#69913: May 4th 2017 at 2:37:05 PM

I don't think I do either.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#69914: May 4th 2017 at 2:38:18 PM

Mind you: I agree the show is tone-deaf in several regards. Even this very scene I'm talking about is a tad cringeworthy. I just don't think it's that bad and I don't think it was intentional.

In either case, Iron Fist's Unfortunate Implications are a undead disemboweled horse by this point that I am not going to debate. I was just clarifying with regards to that specific scene (and yes, Wing does know about about other styles, but it's self-evident punching shit is not her forte, and all of Danny's advices are pretty specific to Kung Fu's chi-based worldview).

PS: I also have no idea what Alexa is trying to say.

edited 4th May '17 2:38:52 PM by Gaon

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#69915: May 4th 2017 at 2:41:57 PM

Christ, Danny is such a douche in this episode.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#69916: May 4th 2017 at 2:45:56 PM

@Alexa Maybe you were responding to someone else? Talking about a scenario where you can never have the white lead win out over the person of that culture? Because I'm not saying you can't ever do that. It's just that when you're dealing with these, yes, politically charged topics, you need to show you actually understand them. And in a case like this, if Danny wins because his superpower is being the world's best martial artist, I need to be convinced of that, and I'm not, because the show really doesn't show the character being all that great of a fighter, even if Finn Jones was a convincing fighter, which he isn't. By the time he fights Colleen, he's spent most of the preceding episodes losing fights and running away. So it just comes across as having her job to the Iron Fist so that he can start being built up again.

RAlexa21th Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer from California (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I <3 love!
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#69918: May 4th 2017 at 2:53:26 PM

The scene in a vacuum is problematic. But it doesn't exist in a vacuum, it is part of a whole show.

When I first saw the scene I was cringing, too...until I saw Coleen's reaction to Danny's "look what I am able to do" enactment and underlying sexism. In, she doesn't appreciate it at all and thankfully Danny learns pretty fast. (I have the feeling that Kunlun isn't exactly open to female fighters, though Danny thinking that Colleen has a sensai might be based on her age and not her gender).

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#69919: May 4th 2017 at 3:01:28 PM

So Hogarth is awesome. More awesome than in Jessica Jones, actually. And Colleen's cage match is...not that bad, I guess? I dunno, the complaints of Fight Scene Failure don't really ring to me outside of the wonky editing. Seriously, all of this fight scene editing is getting really atrocious. I'm dreading whatever fight is supposed to have like 88 cuts to it.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#69920: May 4th 2017 at 3:08:50 PM

I despised Hogarth in JJ but Iron Fist actually managed to somewhat redeem her character since she's less of a unrelenting selfish asshole now.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#69921: May 4th 2017 at 3:08:50 PM

The show addresses the part where K'un-Lun is sexist and defers to its elders in a very Confucian way, but it's still sidestepping the problem with having white characters come in and beat various natives at their own game. That can still happen, but there just needs to be some acknowledgment that you're aware that's what you're depicting. There are a lot of great fighters who are white (and of various other races who practice martial arts from cultures other than their own). And that being the case, it's fine if Danny wins, but I need to at least feel like he's winning on his own merits, that he is actually one of the world's greatest martial artists. That never comes across.

Most of the fighters are pretty good. Finn Jones starts off pretty rough. He gets better, never great. But there are some pretty solid fight scenes still to come, and it's mostly the editing that hurts them, not the skill of the participants.

Say hi to Hogarth, she's great.

...and then say goodbye, because she's barely in the show. [up]Her being a truly terrible person who becomes better through her association through the heroes is kind of her (or his, rather) arc from the comics, yeah?

edited 4th May '17 3:41:50 PM by Unsung

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#69922: May 4th 2017 at 3:13:54 PM

I got what Alexa was saying. Basically, that trying to tiptoe around harmful stereotypes just feeds into new stereotypes in the opposite direction. In this case, she's saying that Colleen winning the fight just because she's Asian would be avoiding the Mighty Whitey stereotype by playing into the All Asians Know Kung Fu stereotype instead.

What she's missing, in my opinion, is that no story exists in a vacuum. Mighty Whitey isn't a bad thing because there's something inherently wrong with white people being good at stuff, but because of the general trend across countless stories in which white people mastering others' culture has become commonplace.

The criticisms levelled against Danny are about him contributing to this broader trend. For some audiences, we're just sick of seeing white guys stumble ass-backwards into being Best Kung Fu Master, Best Navajo, Best Samurai, etc. etc. and would rather see the greatest practitioner of a Chinese craft be a Chinese person. Or, alternately, a Hispanic person, a black person, a Japanese person, a Native American person...just anything other than another f*cking white guy.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#69923: May 4th 2017 at 3:18:03 PM

I got that part, but there was an arrow pointing to my post, and I still don't quite see how that ties into what I'd said. I'm okay with Danny winning that fight. I just don't think the show makes that plausible, and I don't think you can pull off those moments without a hint of irony or self-awareness. That's all I'm asking for.

RAlexa21th Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer from California (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I <3 love!
Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer
#69924: May 4th 2017 at 3:21:56 PM
Thumped: for switching the discussion from the topic to a person. Doesn't take many of this kind of thump to bring a suspension. Stay on the topic, not the people in the discussion.
Continue writing our story of peace.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#69925: May 4th 2017 at 3:36:12 PM

Hypothetically, if you are afraid of Psycho Lesbians stereotypes, yet you can portray straight girl as Yandere, that's just creating a stereotype about good lesbians.
That's not how stereotypes work. At all. You don't create stereotypes by avoiding one stereotype. You can portray a complex lesbian character without it falling into Psycho Lesbian or Too Good for This Sinful Earth. Similarly, you can portray Colleen as just as good as Danny is at kung fu without saying that she's good because she's Asian. Hell, she is better than Danny at swordfighting, so what does that say about the stereotypes in the show? It doesn't. It just says that Colleen - who is half-white, half-Chinese, by the way - is better at swordfighting. Making it so that she and Danny were on more even grounds would then help disassociate Danny from the Mighty Whitey trope. (The Mighty Whitey trope is lessened much later on when a character is introduced who tells Danny "You are the worst Iron Fist ever.")

The other Unfortunate Implications is that Danny calls Colleen's class (made up of mostly black and Latinx students) "chattering monkeys." He didn't mean it in a racist way, but the writers should have seen how it could be interpreted and changed it.


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