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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#69827: May 4th 2017 at 8:24:18 AM

Someone a few pages back said people like Loki when he's not being an antagonist. To those people, not nessasrily the same person who said that about Loki, Loki's attempted extinction of Jotunheim isn't really bad because they frame it as him being the hero of the story.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#69828: May 4th 2017 at 8:26:24 AM

Even if you don't like Loki in The Avengers, you can always tell yourself that he wasn't himself because of whatever Thanos did to him.

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#69829: May 4th 2017 at 8:36:43 AM

[up] I thought of that, all the way back to when I first watched the movie. I even asked somebody during a recent MCU VS. DCEU argument if they ever had someone say Loki was in any way mind controlled or externally effected and that caused his characterization in Avengers. The answer I got was no.

He's not the only problem I had with the movie, anyway.

edited 4th May '17 8:37:45 AM by Nikkolas

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#69830: May 4th 2017 at 8:38:13 AM

[up][up][up][up]No mask or tuning fork. 0/10.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#69831: May 4th 2017 at 8:38:45 AM

Because that's a pretty weak Draco in Leather Pants excuse to whitewash Loki. Loki is a narcissistic sociopath. There is no way around this.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#69832: May 4th 2017 at 8:45:20 AM

@Valkyrie: Operation: Get rid of Jane to replace her with a more kick-ass version seems to be a success. Does anyone knows whether or not Sif will be in both movie?

We don't know. I don't think it's even been officially confirmed she's in Ragnarok (though it's very likely). There was a leaked casting call indicating Infinity War does have some scenes in Asgard though, so maybe she has a cameo there.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#69833: May 4th 2017 at 8:46:57 AM

He's pretty remorseless about it at the beginning of Dark World

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#69834: May 4th 2017 at 8:47:37 AM

[up][up][up] That is your interpretation.

Whenever somebody tries to spin a character blatantly caring about another character as some sort of egotistical angle ("he doesn't actually care bout Odin, even though he desperately wants Odin's validation. This is only because he's actually that self-centered .It makes sense!") I just roll my eyes and move on. There's no point in arguing it because you are determined to misrepresent what he says or does and twist it. He is shown to care...which is why he doesn't care.

I literally just had to deal with this exact same argument about Man of Steel Superman.

Clearly everybody is a psychopath, The Joker was right all along.

edited 4th May '17 8:49:34 AM by Nikkolas

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#69835: May 4th 2017 at 8:51:27 AM

Loki's behavior in Avengers suggested to me way back when that he's under duress. He's not being mind-controlled or anything, but I feel like it's indicated well enough that he's not as in control of things as he claims.

  1. He accepts physical abuse from his master without resistance or even verbal protest.
  2. His proclamations that he will somehow rule Earth through all of this is repeatedly called out by other characters as asinine and nonsensical.
  3. He's more violent and sadistic than he's ever been, behaving not unlike a person desperate to reclaim a feeling of power and control that's been taken from them.

I never bought into the theory that Loki was being controlled by the Scepter, but his behavior through the film always suggested to me that before he'd been sent to Earth, Thanos took the time to break him and bring him under control the hard way.

Age Of Ultron establishing that the scepter had a living AI and was capable of continuing the work without Loki, however, made the mind control theory more palpable.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#69836: May 4th 2017 at 8:52:17 AM

[up][up]It's going to be pretty difficult to have any sort of debate when your take on dissenting opinion is eyerolling and labeling me as a distorter of facts.

I don't really see how Loki can be interpreted to truly "care" for Odin. He spends the entirety of the Dark World detesting him and it's strongly implied he assassinates him at the end though Ragnarok may reveal something else to that.

edited 4th May '17 8:56:08 AM by Gaon

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#69837: May 4th 2017 at 8:55:03 AM

I feel like we're back in 2013. All we need now is another debate about the Mandarin!

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#69838: May 4th 2017 at 8:58:05 AM

Mind you, debating Loki's character arc is a pretty mild thing. Hasn't happened all that often in this thread and has never turned hostile. Our true vices are:

- The Mandarin.

- Loki being overexposed.

- Iron Fist.

- If Wanda deserves redemption.

- Whether Civil War's debate was a crock of shit or not.

- Tony Stark being overexposed.

And sometimes if the MCU really has magic or if it's all just science.

edited 4th May '17 8:59:29 AM by Gaon

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#69839: May 4th 2017 at 9:01:33 AM

I actually seem to recall whether or not the Hulk could actually have beaten Loki being something that was debated for an absurdly large length of time.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#69840: May 4th 2017 at 9:02:13 AM

That's silly. The Hulk regularly throws down with Thor. Loki's clever, but he's not a powerhouse.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#69841: May 4th 2017 at 9:08:22 AM

Yes but this was during the stage where we had people arguing Loki is the smartest, most brilliant and cunning villain ever created so of course if Hulk beat him up, this was just Loki allowing that to happen as part of some larger scheme because...reasons?

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#69842: May 4th 2017 at 9:10:30 AM

@Gaon

I did sound rude/hostile there.. I'm sorry. But if you viewed Loki as a monster waiting to happen, I don't see how there can even be an argument. We disagree on first principles. At that point, The Avengers is irrelevant.

@ comicwriter

Well The Avengers was the last MCU film I saw so I guess I might as well be in 2012 or 2013.

My roommate at the time did watch Iron Man 3 when it first came out but I didn't pay attention because Tony Stark offends my senses.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#69843: May 4th 2017 at 9:15:26 AM

Then I guess I have to ask why you're coming in to pick a fight about a movie 5 years after the fact.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#69844: May 4th 2017 at 9:17:21 AM

There's no point in arguing it because you are determined to misrepresent what he says or does and twist it.
We aren't. We are representing exactly what is on-screen. Like that time he tried to kill Thor. And that other time he tried to kill Thor. And that time he tried to kill an entire race of species, which is pretty unacceptable no matter what his motive was. (I keep thinking about that Brooklyn 99 scene where Jake says, "Cool motive. Still murder.") And that time he tried to subjugate the Earth.

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#69845: May 4th 2017 at 9:19:33 AM

[up][up] My post in here was initially about Whedon and the interview I heard about from him.

[up] Those are actions. Gaeon and I have fundamentally different understandings of the why behind those actions.

The why is always more important than the what when you are assessing a character's...uh, character.

edited 4th May '17 9:21:24 AM by Nikkolas

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#69847: May 4th 2017 at 9:22:39 AM

His entire character is built on being witty, charming and funny. He is none of those things to me. He is merely...smug. Very, very, very smug.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#69848: May 4th 2017 at 9:34:14 AM

Those are actions. Gaeon and I have fundamentally different understandings of the why behind those actions.
Yes, the actions that we see. The motivations we cannot see, we can only infer from the actions. Therefore, we are judging Loki by what happened on screen, just like you. I just see him as a Psychopathic Manchild willing to kill whoever he wants in order to get what he wants.

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#69850: May 4th 2017 at 10:22:22 AM

[up] They better have the goddamn dinosaur.

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.

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