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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
Well....filibuster.
Also: There's no real record of Marvel's Executive Meddling damning Ao U. It's been more or less agreed most of the issues in the film were of Whedon's own making (a bit like Suicide Squad being an atrocious film is ultimately the fault of David Ayer, the meddling just made it worse). For example, he insisted that the movie be shorter than the first Avengers, and this is universally agreed as a terrible decision because the movie really could have used a few extra minutes.
edited 3rd May '17 6:58:49 PM by Gaon
"All you Fascists bound to lose."That Defenders trailer made me realize that I haven't actually gotten around to watching any of the Netflix shows that came out after Jessica Jones (mostly due to lack of time). I definitely got the gist of them from this site and Adric's reviews but how important is it that I watch them in full before watching Defenders?
This song needs more love.Yeah, so you get to know the characters at least. The plot of Luke Cage kind of directly leads into The Defenders.
And I'm getting the sense Iron Fist establishes a lot of concepts that will be important in the Defenders.
"All you Fascists bound to lose."He doesn't hate it, and in fact regrets saying comments prior to the film suggesting such.
"The things about it that are wrong frustrate me enormously, but I got to make an absurdly personal movie about humanity and what it means in a very esoteric and bizarre ways for hundreds of millions of dollars. The fact that Marvel gave me that opportunity twice is so bonkers and beautiful and the fact that I come off as a miserable failure is also bonkers, but not in a cute way."
edited 4th May '17 1:50:58 AM by Tuckerscreator
As for whether or not Joss hates AOU — he has never said that. He has said that he sees flaws whenever he watches the film, but he's said the same thing of the first Avengers, too.
That, too.
edited 3rd May '17 9:20:04 PM by alliterator
I can assure everyone, it is completely possible to be proud as hell of your own work and be its harshest critic. It sounds like Whedon simply had a different vision of the movie than the studio and parent company wanted, and there was a large number of compromises to blend it all together. It's probably not all that different from Favreau and Iron Man 2, strained business relationship but still technically on good terms overall.
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Yes, because it was a shit movie full of completely unlikable characters and it turned Loki from the only good villain in the MCU into a cartoon villain who kills Holocaust survivors because cheap emotional manipulation.
It was just a soulless film with nothing to say and featuring no one worth caring about.
And fair enough about Whedon's issues with the movie. I just saw a post in another thread from a few days ago that was from an interview with him where he complained about the loss of crative independence in AOU and how the MUC has dropped the Hulk/Widow romance, revived Coulson, and apparently cut some scene of Loki from AOU even after Joss personally requested Hiddleston come in to do the scene.
edited 4th May '17 2:45:29 AM by Nikkolas
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Loki wouldn't care but we're supposed to. By having what can be (as
said it's not outright stated but the implications are obvious and Whedon is incapable of subtlety anyway) easily interpreted as a Holocaust survivor stand up against Loki and say he's no different than what came before, he's likened to Hitler. And well, you could sympathize with Hitler given some of the shit he went through, but I doubt that was Whedon's intention. He just turned Loki into a bland monster with no redeeming qualities.
I went from Thor 1 to Avengers. Thor was the only MCU movie I liked. Seeing what they did to Loki in Avengers was just...almost offensive, really.
Between Avengers and Incredible Hulk, I gave up on the MCU.
As for the rest of the Whedon stuff about AOU, that's fine. Thank you for the info
edited 4th May '17 6:57:44 AM by Nikkolas
Loki does not actually kill a holocaust survivor. Cap arrives before he has a chance to do so.
I don't know what there is to complain about Loki in the Avengers, really. It's where his character arc is supposed to go: For the more Loki coats himself in good intentions, ultimately he's a narcissistic sociopath hellbent on obtanining more power to satisfy his own inferiority complex. In Thor we saw his Start of Darkness, in the Avengers we see him finally giving up on all pretenses and becoming the supervillain Loki he is meant to be. In fact the Dark World's greatest mistake is trying to make him the poor, misunderstood Loki again after he tried to commit genocide on two separate occasions.
It's disturbingly how people keep forgetting Loki was entirely a-ok with wiping out an entire realm of existence (Jotunheim) in Thor. Him being a genocidal fascist wasn't invented in the Avengers.
edited 4th May '17 7:55:45 AM by Gaon
"All you Fascists bound to lose."I didn't forget that he tried to kill the Frost Giants. But motive matters in these things. If he was a sociopath as you said, he wouldn't be so emotionally distraught by feelings of failure, like his entire identity is a sham. He tried to kill the Frost Giants specifically as a sign of "I'm NOT one of them. I AM an Asgardian." He was in a full existential meltdown, feeling like his entire life was a lie and all he wanted to do was show Odin that he was worthy to be his son.
Then in the next movie, Imma take over the Earth 'cuz resons.
There's a big difference between these two things. Nobody would like Loki if he was just the one-dimensional twit that Avengers made him out to be.
edited 4th May '17 8:02:48 AM by Nikkolas
He can be both a sociopath and be distraught over his own identity. Loki in general is a pretty selfish and narcissistic person. He only cares for Odin because he sees Odin as a source of approval. He doesn't care about Thor, his own brother who always loved him only because he's on his way to the throne. The only thing Loki cares about is himself. Or more accurately, the gaping hole in his soul left by his inferiority complex.
What Loki is and has always been is a brat. He has this raging inferiority complex because of his real identity and what he wants is something to validate himself. He tries to commit genocide upon Jotunheim because he thought this would validate him as an Asgardian. Loki thinks being an Asgardian means being a tyrant.
Thor and Odin both repeatedly tell him this is wrong but he's deaf to their observations. From Loki's warped view of the world, Thor and Odin rejected him even though he tried his best to be an Asgardian. He thus crosses the Despair Event Horizon because he realizes he never will get the validation he wants from Odin/Asgard because "Loki you're a genocidal lunatic stop doing this" is a concept that does not fit in Loki's head.
So Loki, the child he is, flips the board. He ragequits and decides that if Asgard despises him so much, he will make a world of his own to be accepted, on Earth, using the same warped sense of morality he had on his attempts on Asgard (i.e no life matters except those that prove my own validation). It's a perfectly logical conclusion to his character arc.
"All you Fascists bound to lose."

He's said that he thinks it's a flawed movie but I never saw anything about him outright hating it. And while there was definitely tension and Executive Meddling behind the scenes, his exit couldn't have been that rough given they invited him to the premier of Guardians 2.
edited 3rd May '17 6:53:29 PM by comicwriter