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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#69801: May 3rd 2017 at 6:52:54 PM

He's said that he thinks it's a flawed movie but I never saw anything about him outright hating it. And while there was definitely tension and Executive Meddling behind the scenes, his exit couldn't have been that rough given they invited him to the premier of Guardians 2.

edited 3rd May '17 6:53:29 PM by comicwriter

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#69802: May 3rd 2017 at 6:56:39 PM

I can clearly see you know nothing about the law. Seems like you have a tenuous grasp on the English language in general.

Well....filibuster.

Also: There's no real record of Marvel's Executive Meddling damning Ao U. It's been more or less agreed most of the issues in the film were of Whedon's own making (a bit like Suicide Squad being an atrocious film is ultimately the fault of David Ayer, the meddling just made it worse). For example, he insisted that the movie be shorter than the first Avengers, and this is universally agreed as a terrible decision because the movie really could have used a few extra minutes.

edited 3rd May '17 6:58:49 PM by Gaon

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#69803: May 3rd 2017 at 7:13:07 PM

That Defenders trailer made me realize that I haven't actually gotten around to watching any of the Netflix shows that came out after Jessica Jones (mostly due to lack of time). I definitely got the gist of them from this site and Adric's reviews but how important is it that I watch them in full before watching Defenders?

This song needs more love.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#69804: May 3rd 2017 at 7:15:22 PM

Vastly for Luke Cage, probably vastly for Iron Fist.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#69805: May 3rd 2017 at 7:16:25 PM

Yeah, so you get to know the characters at least. The plot of Luke Cage kind of directly leads into The Defenders.

And I'm getting the sense Iron Fist establishes a lot of concepts that will be important in the Defenders.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#69806: May 3rd 2017 at 7:32:32 PM

Yeah that's what I figured. Ah well, to Netflix.

This song needs more love.
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#69807: May 3rd 2017 at 8:30:59 PM

So do you guys think Defenders will continue the tradition of people using car doors in ways they're not supposed to be used?

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#69808: May 3rd 2017 at 8:46:02 PM

God, I hope so.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#69809: May 3rd 2017 at 8:49:44 PM

Remind me, did Daredevil Season 2 do anything with a car door? I FEEL like it did, probably in one of Punisher's rampages, but I can't remember for sure.

I know the other four shows/seasons did.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Guy01 Since: Mar, 2015
#69810: May 3rd 2017 at 9:06:27 PM

I kinda want to see Luke use car door boxing gloves now. The Savior Of Harlem copying the man who broke Harlem.

Ok, who let Light Yagami in here?
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#69811: May 3rd 2017 at 9:19:14 PM

I never watched Age of Ultron but apparently Whedon himself hates it and left on pretty rough terms with Marvel

He doesn't hate it, and in fact regrets saying comments prior to the film suggesting such.

Whedon: "[Age of] Ultron, I'm very proud of. There were things that did not meet my expectations of myself and then I was so beaten down by the process. Some of that was conflicting with Marvel, which is inevitable and a lot of that was about my own work and I was also exhausted, and we right away went and did publicity. I created the narrative — wherein I'm not quite accomplished at — and people just ran with [about AOU] 'Well it's OK, it could be better, but it's not Joss's fault' and I think that did a disservice to the movie, and to the studio and to myself. Ultimately, it wasn't the right way to be because I'm very proud about it."

"The things about it that are wrong frustrate me enormously, but I got to make an absurdly personal movie about humanity and what it means in a very esoteric and bizarre ways for hundreds of millions of dollars. The fact that Marvel gave me that opportunity twice is so bonkers and beautiful and the fact that I come off as a miserable failure is also bonkers, but not in a cute way."

edited 4th May '17 1:50:58 AM by Tuckerscreator

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#69812: May 3rd 2017 at 9:19:45 PM

Some have harsh words for this man of renown, but I think our attitude should be one of gratitude, like the widows and cripples in old London town, who owe their large pensions to Wernher von Braun.
I love you so much for quoting Tom Lehrer. I was going to do it, but a brainfart made me forgot a bunch of lyrics. The only one I remembered was "Once the rockets go up, who cares where they come down? That's not my department, says Wernher von Braun."

Might I just say I lost a lot of respect for Whedon due to Avengers 1.
Because...you didn't like it?

I never watched Age of Ultron but apparently Whedon himself hates it and left on pretty rough terms with Marvel and they have in turn shit all over his decisions/ideas.
Uh, no, he didn't leave Marvel on rough times and they haven't turned to shit on all his ideas. For one thing, he's still pretty good friends with Kevin Feige — Joss even called him before accepting the job as writer/director of Batgirl — and they haven't shit over any of his ideas, considering that Thanos was one of his ideas. Actually, hiring James Gunn was another idea of Joss's and that worked out splendidly.

As for whether or not Joss hates AOU — he has never said that. He has said that he sees flaws whenever he watches the film, but he's said the same thing of the first Avengers, too.

[up] That, too.

edited 3rd May '17 9:20:04 PM by alliterator

KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#69813: May 4th 2017 at 12:37:55 AM

I can assure everyone, it is completely possible to be proud as hell of your own work and be its harshest critic. It sounds like Whedon simply had a different vision of the movie than the studio and parent company wanted, and there was a large number of compromises to blend it all together. It's probably not all that different from Favreau and Iron Man 2, strained business relationship but still technically on good terms overall.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#69814: May 4th 2017 at 12:50:12 AM

I bet loads of directors hate the movies they're working on while they're working on them. It's a really stressful job.

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#69815: May 4th 2017 at 2:44:31 AM

[up][up][up] Yes, because it was a shit movie full of completely unlikable characters and it turned Loki from the only good villain in the MCU into a cartoon villain who kills Holocaust survivors because cheap emotional manipulation.

It was just a soulless film with nothing to say and featuring no one worth caring about.

And fair enough about Whedon's issues with the movie. I just saw a post in another thread from a few days ago that was from an interview with him where he complained about the loss of crative independence in AOU and how the MUC has dropped the Hulk/Widow romance, revived Coulson, and apparently cut some scene of Loki from AOU even after Joss personally requested Hiddleston come in to do the scene.

edited 4th May '17 2:45:29 AM by Nikkolas

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#69816: May 4th 2017 at 6:40:08 AM

Yes, because it was a shit movie full of completely unlikable characters and it turned Loki from the only good villain in the MCU into a cartoon villain who kills Holocaust survivors because cheap emotional manipulation.
Yeah, I'm going to say that I don't feel the same. At all. The movie is actually full of completely likable characters and Loki is still one of the great supervillains who manages to be really creepy and still sympathetic by the end. (Also, why would Loki care if someone was a Holocaust survivor? He doesn't give a shit about humans.)

I just saw a post in another thread from a few days ago that was from an interview with him where he complained about the loss of crative independence in AOU and how the MUC has dropped the Hulk/Widow romance, revived Coulson, and apparently cut some scene of Loki from AOU even after Joss personally requested Hiddleston come in to do the scene.
Either he was tired in that interview or they quote-mined him, because 1) he himself brought back Coulson, but later decided that he couldn't put him in AOU because it would be a bit too much and take away from the rest of the film and 2) Joss was responsible for cutting everything out of AOU in the first place, so if he really wanted to keep that Loki scene in, he could have (it was part of the dream sequence and he said that he cut it because it make it sound like Loki was the one behind Ultron). As for the Hulk/Widow romance, I'm pretty sure he knew that was only for AOU, since Hulk would be disappearing after AOU and wouldn't show up for a while.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#69817: May 4th 2017 at 6:46:33 AM

Just for the record, nobody ever said that the old man is a Holocaust survivor. At least not in the movie. Not that I mind someone seeing him that way though personally I prefer to see him as an acknowledgement that Germany has developed into something else and learned from its past.

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#69818: May 4th 2017 at 6:51:53 AM

[up][up] Loki wouldn't care but we're supposed to. By having what can be (as [up] said it's not outright stated but the implications are obvious and Whedon is incapable of subtlety anyway) easily interpreted as a Holocaust survivor stand up against Loki and say he's no different than what came before, he's likened to Hitler. And well, you could sympathize with Hitler given some of the shit he went through, but I doubt that was Whedon's intention. He just turned Loki into a bland monster with no redeeming qualities.

I went from Thor 1 to Avengers. Thor was the only MCU movie I liked. Seeing what they did to Loki in Avengers was just...almost offensive, really.

Between Avengers and Incredible Hulk, I gave up on the MCU.

As for the rest of the Whedon stuff about AOU, that's fine. Thank you for the info

edited 4th May '17 6:57:44 AM by Nikkolas

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#69819: May 4th 2017 at 6:55:18 AM

its a good sign when this thread is a train wreck so early in the morning.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#69821: May 4th 2017 at 7:55:30 AM

Loki does not actually kill a holocaust survivor. Cap arrives before he has a chance to do so.

I don't know what there is to complain about Loki in the Avengers, really. It's where his character arc is supposed to go: For the more Loki coats himself in good intentions, ultimately he's a narcissistic sociopath hellbent on obtanining more power to satisfy his own inferiority complex. In Thor we saw his Start of Darkness, in the Avengers we see him finally giving up on all pretenses and becoming the supervillain Loki he is meant to be. In fact the Dark World's greatest mistake is trying to make him the poor, misunderstood Loki again after he tried to commit genocide on two separate occasions.

It's disturbingly how people keep forgetting Loki was entirely a-ok with wiping out an entire realm of existence (Jotunheim) in Thor. Him being a genocidal fascist wasn't invented in the Avengers.

edited 4th May '17 7:55:45 AM by Gaon

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#69822: May 4th 2017 at 8:01:07 AM

I didn't forget that he tried to kill the Frost Giants. But motive matters in these things. If he was a sociopath as you said, he wouldn't be so emotionally distraught by feelings of failure, like his entire identity is a sham. He tried to kill the Frost Giants specifically as a sign of "I'm NOT one of them. I AM an Asgardian." He was in a full existential meltdown, feeling like his entire life was a lie and all he wanted to do was show Odin that he was worthy to be his son.

Then in the next movie, Imma take over the Earth 'cuz resons.

There's a big difference between these two things. Nobody would like Loki if he was just the one-dimensional twit that Avengers made him out to be.

edited 4th May '17 8:02:48 AM by Nikkolas

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#69823: May 4th 2017 at 8:11:33 AM

I went from Thor 1 to Avengers. Thor was the only MCU movie I liked. Seeing what they did to Loki in Avengers was just...almost offensive, really.
I'm going with "Loki was pretty much the same in both movies, just a lot more unhinged in Avengers, probably due to the influence of Thanos and his fall through the wormhole." You can see that Loki is the same character as he was in Thor — hell, he even says that he stood in the "shadow of greatness" when he was in Asgard.

Then in the next movie, Imma take over the Earth 'cuz resons.
Those reasons being: Thanos. That's an important motivator for Loki.

Nobody would like Loki if he was just the one-dimensional twit that Avengers made him out to be.
Loki is a lot more than one-dimensional in Avengers.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#69824: May 4th 2017 at 8:15:21 AM

He can be both a sociopath and be distraught over his own identity. Loki in general is a pretty selfish and narcissistic person. He only cares for Odin because he sees Odin as a source of approval. He doesn't care about Thor, his own brother who always loved him only because he's on his way to the throne. The only thing Loki cares about is himself. Or more accurately, the gaping hole in his soul left by his inferiority complex.

What Loki is and has always been is a brat. He has this raging inferiority complex because of his real identity and what he wants is something to validate himself. He tries to commit genocide upon Jotunheim because he thought this would validate him as an Asgardian. Loki thinks being an Asgardian means being a tyrant.

Thor and Odin both repeatedly tell him this is wrong but he's deaf to their observations. From Loki's warped view of the world, Thor and Odin rejected him even though he tried his best to be an Asgardian. He thus crosses the Despair Event Horizon because he realizes he never will get the validation he wants from Odin/Asgard because "Loki you're a genocidal lunatic stop doing this" is a concept that does not fit in Loki's head.

So Loki, the child he is, flips the board. He ragequits and decides that if Asgard despises him so much, he will make a world of his own to be accepted, on Earth, using the same warped sense of morality he had on his attempts on Asgard (i.e no life matters except those that prove my own validation). It's a perfectly logical conclusion to his character arc.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
shatterstar Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I wanna know about these strangers like me
#69825: May 4th 2017 at 8:19:08 AM

@Valkyrie: Operation: Get rid of Jane to replace her with a more kick-ass version seems to be a success. Does anyone knows whether or not Sif will be in both movie?

edited 4th May '17 8:19:26 AM by shatterstar


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