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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#69676: May 2nd 2017 at 7:03:14 PM

To be honest that's both because Luke is more powerful and Cottonmouth has less resources than Kingpin and The Hand.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#69677: May 2nd 2017 at 7:06:15 PM

I never get the claim Daredevil made things worse in season 2 of Daredevil. He stopped the Hand, folks. That's a win.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#69678: May 2nd 2017 at 7:06:37 PM

Fair enough, but I still infinitely prefer Luke to Matt. Maybe it's the personality, I don't know. Luke seems to fill a bit of the "average guy" persona that makes me like him. Like, he seems like somebody you'd share a drink with.

[up]

He didn't stop the Hand, he was too busy whining about his no-kill code while Elektra, Stick, and Frank killed them off.

edited 2nd May '17 7:07:36 PM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#69679: May 2nd 2017 at 7:09:02 PM

[up][up] No, he didn't. He narrowly survived starting shit with the hand because the Punisher showed up to kill ninjas for him. Then Stick took out Nobu.

The Hand was stopped and Dare Devil was nearby.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#69680: May 2nd 2017 at 7:09:41 PM

Except the Hand is still around and they got what they want. Nobu and a bunch of faceless ninjas are dead but they have Elektra and they have their giant hole and they're still collecting blood

It wasn't much a victory for Matt. Not even a moral one because he needed Frank and Stick and their murdery ways to fight the Hand

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#69681: May 2nd 2017 at 7:10:29 PM

I too loved Diamondback's stupid suit and his final brawl with Luke. I think it was a pretty satisfying way to cap off that storyline.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#69682: May 2nd 2017 at 7:10:54 PM

Seriously, most of my reasons for being pissed off about Season 2 of Daredevil were that Matt barely did anything useful.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#69683: May 2nd 2017 at 7:11:53 PM

Daredevil was the Big Bad of Daredevil season 2.

edited 2nd May '17 7:12:09 PM by VeryMelon

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#69684: May 2nd 2017 at 7:13:59 PM

[up][up] Yeah, Matt kinda just...dicked around. He was barely there to help with a trial nobody but him wanted and it kinda looked like he just fucked up the trial before he really began cross-examination.

He wasn't very good at balancing his work/vigilante life. And was kinda of a dick about it.

edited 2nd May '17 7:14:33 PM by fredhot16

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Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#69685: May 2nd 2017 at 7:16:26 PM

Well yes, the Hand is still around, but he took out Nobu and neither Elektra nor Stick would have succeeded at anything without him. Stick was, in fact, about to be executed when Matt saved him, same as Frank. So, without Matt: The Irishman Gangboss kills Frank, Stick gets tortured to death, Elektra doesn't figure out anything about the Hand's plot (she doesn't have super-hearing as you'll recall) and thus Nobu's plan goes on without a hitch and the D.A's corruption scheme goes on without any obstacles because Matt's the only reason Foggy and Karen took on the D.A.

I remain confused.

edited 2nd May '17 7:16:54 PM by Gaon

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Cross (Don’t ask)
#69686: May 2nd 2017 at 7:16:50 PM

I'm hoping there was a genuine point to all of that, because otherwise it's a shit thing to do to a character.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#69687: May 2nd 2017 at 7:25:32 PM

I've been saying since season one that Matt's No-Kill policy is depicted really weirdly because, generally, when a hero raves on and on about the importance of not killing people, we're expected to think that they're right.

Quite the opposite, the show seems to go out of its way to depict it as Matt's flaw.

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RAlexa21th Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer from California (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I <3 love!
Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer
#69688: May 2nd 2017 at 7:27:30 PM

[up]So Daredevil S2 is the Batman series I've always wished for!

Continue writing our story of peace.
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#69689: May 2nd 2017 at 7:31:50 PM

I also forgot Matt saves an entire hospital full of people from the Hand and the other truckload of people Nobu is using for his resurrections. He doesn't stop the Hand entirely but he surely throws a monkey wrench in their plans.

Matt was arguably a dick in season 2 of Daredevil, but it's odd to say he was "useless" or "counter-productive" just because he needed help. I remember the same criticism being leveled against season 1 of Daredevil and it was just as false then as it is now. The problem with season 2 is that the Hand's goals are very nebulous and unexplained, so it's hard to gauge what Matt is stopping, but he's definitely stopping (or derailing) something.

I'm also so-so on the idea of the show not caring about DD's no-kill code. I think the show does care to an extent: I will go to my grave saying the show meant Grotto's death and funeral to be a Alas, Poor Villain moment to show Frank wasn't entirely in the right.

But I also think season 2 tries too hard to justify Punisher's/Elektra's/Stick's murderous perspective.

edited 2nd May '17 7:33:51 PM by Gaon

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#69690: May 2nd 2017 at 7:55:10 PM

I think it more or less shows that neither answer is really "right". There's no denying that Frank/Stick/Elektra's methods can work when they kill the right people, but at the same time they're not really the best people to be deciding who lives and who dies; they're singular individuals who can't control themselves. Frank killing Grotto isn't portrayed as anything better than a brutal, unnecessary execution, scumbag though Grotto was. Same with Elektra killing that younger Hand ninja Matt had disarmed.

Not to mention how hostile and bloody the streets become with Punisher around; the Kitchen Irish going on a rampage just to find him at the start of episode 4 is a pretty effective reminder that escalating things is going to be met in kind by the criminals, and innocents are going to suffer the consequences.

edited 2nd May '17 7:57:37 PM by Anomalocaris20

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Cross (Don’t ask)
#69691: May 2nd 2017 at 7:55:25 PM

[up][up]The hospital was in danger because he brought those people there, and they still ended up going back to The Hand.

edited 2nd May '17 7:56:05 PM by Cross

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#69692: May 2nd 2017 at 8:20:02 PM

Matt's fatal flaw is leading a double life, not knowing who he wants to be. His no-kill policy is because he's Catholic. He doesn't really need much convincing to kill someone— but what he wants to be talked off that ledge. Taking a life in cold blood will damn him to hell, and once that line is crossed, he won't be able to stop. That's his struggle.

I don't feel like it comes across very well in Season 2 because it goes on too long without really going anywhere. We take nine episodes to foil the Hand and ruin Matt's life, which is a fine setup for future drama, but a poor use of your main character. Matt ends up becoming a secondary figure in his own life and series. That doesn't work.

Ping_Pong_Along Since: May, 2017
#69693: May 2nd 2017 at 9:04:03 PM

I also love the second half of Luke Cage. Yeah, Diamondback was over the top and goofy, but it was something that I hadn't seen in these shows before. It helped to break up the structure these shows have adhered to. Introduce the idea of the villain early, who is a calm, powerful, amoral man in a business suit. There's a back and forth of who has the upper hand between hero and villain. We slowly discover more about the villain until finally the main character overcomes them in the end. That describes the first season of Daredevil and Jessica Jones, along with Iron Fist when that came out. And with Luke Cage, it's kind of what's expected with Cottonmouth early in the season. At the start, he feels like another Fisk, but then he's abruptly killed, Diamondback shows up and suddenly our hero has to deal with someone about as crazy as the Joker.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#69694: May 2nd 2017 at 9:24:21 PM

When I was watching Diamondback, I kept imagining a much more subdued take on the character, exactly as written, quiet reserved, more opaque, somebody where you might not realize is crazy until you get him talking. Someone who's always been in the shadows, has gotten used to operating in secret, now finally getting to stand in the spotlight. That could've been neat. Too much like Fisk, ultimately, though I can imagine it being played differently (I'm imagining a young Forrest Whitaker, circa Ghost Dog or so, and what he might have done with the part).

I kind of like the idea of continuing to play up the Fisk comparison, too, the notion that you have Cottonmouth as someone who's trying to do what Fisk did but without the same savvy or resources, and then Diamondback as a lengthier exploration of Fisk's Villainous Breakdown.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#69695: May 2nd 2017 at 9:26:33 PM

I think Iron Fist succeeded best at playing switcheroo with the villains. IF had the interesting idea of pingponging between Madam Gao, Bakuto and the Meachums every few episodes before finally settling on Harold as the Final Boss. Its flaw was that one of those three (Bakuto) had a very flat actor and uninspired direction, but the idea was pretty solid and created a much more stable pace for the season than LC 's and DD's abrupt switches.

Also: It is somewhat ironic DD is so hung-up on not killing people because the Catholic Church generally has a broader view of "Thou Shall Not Kill", taking the (more accurate to the original meaning) interpretation of "Thou Shall not Murder" (i.e self-defense is alright).

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#69696: May 2nd 2017 at 9:31:50 PM

I still think Bakuto's flatness is entirely deliberate, a consciously feigned air of harmlessness, and he's one of the better fighters on the show, so I kidn of liked the guy in spite of himself. He comes off as holding a lot back, was the impression I always got with him. Another reason why I'd like to see him square off with Matt, because I feel like Matt, in his civilian persona, does the same thing.

In the first season I assumed that Matt was okay with killing in self-defense (it's just that with his abilities he assumes he doesn't have to kill to win), but the second season muddies those waters quite a bit.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#69697: May 2nd 2017 at 9:40:10 PM

I think the idea of Bakuto sounding harmless, friendly and charismatic is fine. The problem is the actor just comes across as boring. Madam Gao grasps his concept of "seemingly harmless dude turning out to be a monster" better than him. I will agree that he had a fantastic fighting style, though.

As for DD, he seemed to be more alright with killing in the first season since killing Fisk was a plan he gave serious thought to for most of the season. It seems like his realization wanting to kill Fisk in the first season was wrong put his Thou Shall Not Kill into overdrive and second season he's kind of a zealot about it. Maybe in the third he'll scale it back and find middle ground.

edited 2nd May '17 9:40:30 PM by Gaon

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#69698: May 2nd 2017 at 9:41:15 PM

I watched a review that complained that Bakuto was beaten by Colleen who he had taught but that's classic martial artsy trope.

Also it would have sucked if Colleen had to sit back and watch someone else beat the person that tried to have all her blood sucked out.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#69699: May 2nd 2017 at 9:51:06 PM

I don't find Bakuto too dull for what he is— he's far from the worst actor on IF, though he's definitely a pretty weak villain and actor if you look at the rest of the Defenders shows. His being a watered-down copycat of Madame Gao is probably intentional, I suspect, but I'd agree that it's not doing him any favours.

MedusaStone Since: Jan, 2015
#69700: May 2nd 2017 at 10:39:46 PM

I haven't seen either of these shows, but I want a Daredevil-related gag in Infinity War. Let's say Steve just couldn't help himself and has been doing some... freelance work. Being Nomad, basically. I doubt he'd use the name. I also doubt he'd have a 'costume', per se. But we did see him dressed all in black in the CW stinger (when he broke his team out of the Raft). So. We need to get the band back together. Someone tracks Steve down. Maybe they knew where was all along and just kept it to themselves. They catch up with him 'on the job' and see him in his black outfit, raise an eyebrow, and say "You been in Hell's Kitchen lately?".

Silly? Sure, but that's how I roll cool.


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