TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Marvel Cinematic Universe

Go To

Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#69576: Apr 30th 2017 at 8:51:13 PM

It's not even really an achievement on Ultron's part. It's blind luck that he fires towards Hawkeye who's holding a kid and can't get out of the way.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#69577: Apr 30th 2017 at 8:52:33 PM

I can't remember if we've ever had a villain that was usually quippy all movie and then when it came time to get serious, they get ''dead'' serious and the movie basically turns into a horror movie.

This song needs more love.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#69578: Apr 30th 2017 at 8:53:18 PM

I don't even think it was about making Ultron menacing. It was the payoff to a joke. Joss is all about subverting expectations, and throughout the movie, Whedon flashed, "HAWKEYE GONNA DIE" in huge neon letters. He makes it pretty clear in no uncertain terms that Hawkeye is that one cop who's just three days from retirement, dammit!

This all sets up the point where Ultron comes gunning for him and suddenly, surprise of surprises, Hawkeye lives and someone else dies instead.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#69579: Apr 30th 2017 at 8:55:13 PM

This is a case where the movie could've done with less jokes. Particularly when it cost a potentially interesting character.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#69580: Apr 30th 2017 at 8:59:21 PM

Yeah I was pretty convinced Hawkeye was gonna bite it up until he didn't.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#69581: Apr 30th 2017 at 9:03:58 PM

The bait and switch shadowed by a Leaning on the Fourth Wall jab ("What, you didn't see that coming?") is a somewhat clever idea. The problem was its execution which was terrible.

If Quicksilver had been killed in a hardfought battle against Ultron alongside Hawkeye, his last words being a bittersweet quip of "what, you didn't see that coming?" would have a lot more impact.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#69582: Apr 30th 2017 at 9:08:49 PM

I still don't get how Pietro was riddled throughly by Ultron, but when Captain America was shot at he went right through Ultron's line of fire and was completely unscathed.

Plot bullets. They miss some heroes by miles, and for others they are guided missiles.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#69583: Apr 30th 2017 at 9:11:20 PM

Pietro should have seen about getting a movie on the slate. That will protect you like nothing else.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#69584: Apr 30th 2017 at 9:12:10 PM

I think the biggest problem with Ultron's menace level is simply that he loses so much. He loses every altercation in the movie. Every single time he comes to blows with the Avengers, Ultron is the one forced to flee at the end.

When he shows up with his shiny new body and shreds one of his old ones to show how much more dangerous this one is, instead of being like, "Oh f*ck, the scary guy got scarier," it instead comes off like, "Oh, is this one going to not be garbage?"

Likewise, the Zerg Rush of Ultron drones doesn't feel like a huge mob of scary dudes. It feels like a goblin swarm - a foe who needs a number advantage to compensate for how utterly harmless a single unit is. We're never really given any impression that an Ultron drone is, by itself, dangerous. Captain America even manages to match one blow for blow on top of a moving vehicle, and he's hardly one of the Avengers' big guns.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#69585: Apr 30th 2017 at 9:14:53 PM

If Quicksilver had been killed in a hardfought battle against Ultron alongside Hawkeye, his last words being a bittersweet quip of "what, you didn't see that coming?" would have a lot more impact.
But that's the entire point of his death: it wasn't after a long drawn out battle. It was quick and pointless (well, not exactly pointless, since he did save Hawkeye and a kid, but you get my meaning). Joss loves to subvert death like that — he'll contrast one big heroic death (Spike) with a death that happens in two seconds and nobody notices (Anya), because, hey, it's a war, that's what happens in a war.

(By the way, for those who didn't find Ultron menacing: it's not just Ultron, Joss has a bit of a problem making big, huge villains menacing. The First Evil of Buffy Season 7 came off as more petty then evil and the Turuk-Hans all ended up a joke. The only Buffy villains who were truly menacing were the Master, Angelus, and the Mayor — all villains who combined a very dark humor in with real menace. Unfortunately, that doesn't always work out. Me, I liked Ultron fine, because I thought we weren't supposed to see him as menacing — we were supposed to see him as a child having a tantrum.)

edited 30th Apr '17 9:15:21 PM by alliterator

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#69586: Apr 30th 2017 at 9:18:47 PM

When Tony claimed towards the start of the movie that the Mind Gem AI was an construct worth reviving the Ultron Project for, and comparing its neural complexity to that of Jarvis, I thought the implication was that Jarvis was helpful but ultimately ill-suited to managing multitudes of drones and Ultron would increase their effectiveness (hence why the Iron Legion took many losses in IM3 and why they stayed out of the fight at the start of AUO). But that seems to have not been the case.

I think the movie still could've worked had it been the Avengers being heavily outgunned by Ultron's legions on aimbot hacks for most of the movie, until Vision emerges as the catalyst they need to turn the tide.

edited 30th Apr '17 9:21:05 PM by Tuckerscreator

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#69587: Apr 30th 2017 at 9:38:28 PM

The Vision did turn the tide, because without him, Ultron would have survived in the internet and kept trying to destroy the world.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#69588: Apr 30th 2017 at 9:41:05 PM

That's not quite the same thing, though. Mainly because it exists mostly in throwaway lines and doesn't directly impact anything that's happening onscreen.

The entire concept of Ultron existing on the internet is underutilized. The only thing he ever achieves through it is more escaping from fights he can't win. This makes Vision shutting him out - which, again, is established in a few lines of dialogue rather than being any kind of thing we can see and cheer for - come off less like a huge game-changer and more like finally closing the door on the helpless rat so they can deal with the pest once and for all.

edited 30th Apr '17 9:41:28 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#69589: Apr 30th 2017 at 10:35:05 PM

Mainly because it exists mostly in throwaway lines and doesn't directly impact anything that's happening onscreen.
I mean, they did give us a visualization of Vision "burning" Ultron out of the internet, but it's not exactly something that everyone can see. It's two AIs doing battle in cyberspace and if you take that too far, it becomes just really silly.

And Ultron was doing more than just surviving on the internet — he was actively trying to hack into the nuclear arsenal, but JARVIS had been stopping him.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#69590: Apr 30th 2017 at 11:39:54 PM

I'm gonna have to call nay on Angelus being menacing as he comes across more like a jerkass ex-boyfriend. The only reason he lasts as long as he does is because Buffy couldn't bring herself to kill until the end.

@tuckerscreator hell when you think about it the name of the movie is false advertising. Age of Ultron? What age? The guy's alive for some weeks at most.

Whedon's trick might have worked for a small scale villain but for bill of Ultron's Cali bet it was just the wrong move.

edited 30th Apr '17 11:45:16 PM by windleopard

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#69591: May 1st 2017 at 12:02:20 AM

It's more "The Annoyance of Ultron"

"The Distraction of Ultron"

"Ah, this fucking guy of Ultron."

My various fanfics.
TheMageofFire Since: May, 2012
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#69594: May 1st 2017 at 1:14:01 AM

Supposedly there were other takes done where Quicksilver survived the movie. It may have been done to keep spoilers at bay, but if just because they weren't sure who would die it demonstrates the problem at hand. The death was done for the sake of surprising the audience rather than because the story naturally went in that direction. Even if Hawkeye was the one to die, all that really needs to change is a couple short scenes in the epilogue. If Quicksilver performed his sacrifice in the middle of the movie there is time to actually make it matter and impact the characters, but it happens so casually after the Big Bad is already on the run that it feels tacked on.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#69595: May 1st 2017 at 1:20:55 AM

Quicksilver was running into the bullets in order to shield Hawkeye and the child from them. That's why he couldn't avoid them. He was standing in front of them so that the bullets couldn't hit them.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#69596: May 1st 2017 at 1:32:22 AM

It may have been done to keep spoilers at bay, but if just because they weren't sure who would die it demonstrates the problem at hand
I'm pretty sure they knew exactly who was going to die before filming even started. They just shot alternate takes so that no spoilers would be leaked.

Quicksilver was running into the bullets in order to shield Hawkeye and the child from them. That's why he couldn't avoid them. He was standing in front of them so that the bullets couldn't hit them.
But Quicksilver wasn't in front of them. He was to the left of them. The scene goes: Ultron aims at the child -> Hawkeye jumps in front of the child to shield him -> Gun goes off, Hawkeye closes his eyes -> Opens his eyes to see that he and the kid are in a different place and where he used to be is Quicksilver, who is now riddled with bullets -> "What, you didn't see that coming?"

edited 1st May '17 1:33:45 AM by alliterator

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#69597: May 1st 2017 at 1:37:20 AM

Ah, okay I rewatched it:

So here's what actually happened: Quicksilver moved a car in front of Hawkeye and the kid so they wouldn't be hit by the bullets. But because moving a whole car probably takes time, he didn't have time to get behind it himself, so he died. The sequence goes:

  1. Hawkeye picks up kid.
  2. Ultron fires machine gun everywhere, trying to kill Hawkeye.
  3. Quicksilver sees Hawkeye and kid are about to die
  4. Hawkeye closes his eyes
  5. Whoosh
  6. Hawkeye opens his eyes and sees there's now a car in front of them blocking the bullets
  7. Quicksilver is riddled with bullets through

edited 1st May '17 1:37:48 AM by alliterator

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#69598: May 1st 2017 at 2:09:52 AM

Okay, hadn't seen this in a while. So he doesn't shield them. I think he's supposed to have pushed Clint and the kid behind the car, not pushed the car in front of them, though. I don't think he's strong enough for the latter.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#69599: May 1st 2017 at 2:31:04 AM

I wonder why Ultron didn't install some guns on himself. If it's good enough for Tony Stark...

Ultron and Cap fight on truck. Cap loses shield. Ultron opens fire. No Civil War.

Ultron does a flyby on Hawkeye, Quick, and kid. Fires tank missile. Three in one shot.

edited 1st May '17 2:33:56 AM by Tuckerscreator

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#69600: May 1st 2017 at 2:39:12 AM

I think he's supposed to have pushed Clint and the kid behind the car, not pushed the car in front of them, though.
That probably makes more sense, but I don't think the scenery changes behind Hawkeye. Maybe it does though.


Total posts: 186,763
Top