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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#69426: Apr 27th 2017 at 11:03:19 AM

Millar also wrote Hulk as a rapist in Old Man Logan

It's a bit of a pattern with him, if twice is a pattern and it probably is

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#69427: Apr 27th 2017 at 11:07:08 AM

His entire writing style consists of intentionally being shocking and offensive as possible because of the sensationalism it brings about. That's why one of the main characters in Kick-Ass is a small child who calls people cunts and graphically slices bad guys in half with katana swords.

edited 27th Apr '17 11:15:16 AM by comicwriter

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#69428: Apr 27th 2017 at 11:12:07 AM

Millar also wrote Hulk as a rapist in Old Man Logan
With that, at least he justified it by saying the Gamma radiation turned him insane.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#69429: Apr 27th 2017 at 11:43:39 AM

It was in an era where the idea of gritty, edgy reboots of popular characters hadn't yet become a cliched punchline, so a gritty revamp of the Avengers appealed to a surprisingly large number of people. It helps that the first two volumes also had gorgeous art.

What, you mean the 90's? Because the Ultimate U was after that.

So it wasn't all bad, is what I'm saying. Just...a lot of it.

This. Like, Captain America's "Letter on my forehead doesn't stand for France" bit when told to surrender was so awful that his 616 writer actually felt the need to compose a retort, having Captain America browbeat another character for calling the French cowards.

Hulk ripping apart alien warships while screaming, "HULK STRAIGHT!!!" was just obnoxious.

But the point that got Hulk up there? Captain America catching his attention in the middle of a rampage and going, "Hulk! Do you see those ships up there? Well, I've been talking to their pilots and do you know what they said about you?!" That moment, in a vacuum, is glorious.

edited 27th Apr '17 11:43:54 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#69430: Apr 27th 2017 at 11:46:29 AM

And Black Widow was always a Russian femme fatale who started out as a villain, so I'm not sure that that should be an Ultimate-specific complaint. She's admittedly a full-on villain in The Ultimates, but the first two things never stopped being true in the main continuity.

The difference is Ultimate Black Widow never stopped being a villain. Main Black Widow did.

That's not the word she'd use.

Doesn't make her less of a villain.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#69431: Apr 27th 2017 at 11:52:22 AM

My verdict...volume 2 is exactly as good as volume 1.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#69432: Apr 27th 2017 at 11:53:48 AM

[up][up][up]There's always some bleed between decades. There was plenty of gritty edgy stuff in the 2000s. '80s, too. That era might've been ending, but it took a long time to make its way out.

[up][up]That's the difference between the two, sure. Wasn't disputing that.

edited 27th Apr '17 11:54:30 AM by Unsung

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#69433: Apr 27th 2017 at 11:56:07 AM

Hulk ripping apart alien warships while screaming, "HULK STRAIGHT!!!"

That sounds like something an edgy twelve year old would write.

This song needs more love.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#69434: Apr 27th 2017 at 12:04:51 PM

Millar is the edgiest twelve year old.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#69435: Apr 27th 2017 at 12:09:27 PM

I'll admit, I laughed upon reading that just now, if only because it's really stupid.

Oh God! Natural light!
Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#69436: Apr 27th 2017 at 12:49:09 PM

[up]The idea of riling up the Hulk by going "You heard what they said about you?!" is hilarious.

"I'm not gay!" jokes meanwhile seem to have aged very poorly.

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#69437: Apr 27th 2017 at 1:07:01 PM

[up] Reminds me of that time a rainbow once made Bruce hulk out.

No, no, that actually happened. I've had five or six hours of sleep for the past week so I can assure you that this wasn't a hallucination brought on by too many Coca-Colas.

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#69439: Apr 27th 2017 at 1:26:51 PM

Doesn't make her less of a villain.

What exactly are you arguing here? Nobody's saying she isn't. We're saying it fit with his intendended goal of trying to do a supposedly more "realistic" take on the Avengers.

What, you mean the 90's? Because the Ultimate U was after that.

That period did not even remotely end in the 90's (and it arguably began in the 80's). The 90's is just where it got to its most ridiculous. Some would argue the attempts at injecting a more humorous or optimistic spin on the universe to act as a counterweight was a relatively recent development. The concept of trying to do serious deconstructions of classic comic heroes was still very much in swing in the early 2000's.

edited 27th Apr '17 1:34:58 PM by comicwriter

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#69440: Apr 27th 2017 at 2:06:18 PM

It's strange that given Millar's reputation for ridiculous edginess, that he's actually written some surprisingly nuanced and idealistic stories pretty well, such as his Superman stories.

edited 27th Apr '17 2:07:37 PM by Tuckerscreator

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#69441: Apr 27th 2017 at 2:18:04 PM

He's not actually a bad writer, when he manages to rein in his tendency toward shock value. I don't like his overall body of work as much as Garth Ennis, but between the two them and Warren Ellis (by far my favourite of the three, though I loved Preacher), you've kind of got the best and worst tendencies of the whole deconstructionist superhero comics movement in a nutshell.

edited 27th Apr '17 5:32:14 PM by Unsung

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#69442: Apr 27th 2017 at 2:27:43 PM

Garth Ennis is fucking trash.

Sorry, involuntary response.

My various fanfics.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#69443: Apr 27th 2017 at 2:27:56 PM

Ellis is the best, simply because he wrote Nextwave: Agents of HATE. "FIN FANG FOOM PUT YOU IN HIS PANTS."

Also, his Take That! against Miller and Ultimate Cap was awesome: "Victim? VICTIM!? DO YOU THINK THIS € ON MY CHEST STANDS FOR AMERICA!?"

edited 27th Apr '17 2:29:26 PM by alliterator

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#69444: Apr 27th 2017 at 3:42:05 PM

Oh, btw, I can confirm five end-credits scene and the end-credits in general are stuffed with Easter eggs.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#69445: Apr 27th 2017 at 3:48:15 PM

[up][up][up]No apologies expected. I haven't read anything of Ennis's output for years, but whatever his flaws, I do like Preacher and his stint on Hellblazer.

I like Ellis more as a general rule, but they're both a product of their time.

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#69446: Apr 27th 2017 at 3:58:22 PM

I think he may be my least-favorite writer of all time.

My various fanfics.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#69447: Apr 27th 2017 at 4:23:34 PM

Ennis tends to hate superheroes, except, ironically, Superman, whom he loves. Ennis's take on Superman in his Hitman issue "Of Thee I Sing" is one of the best. And his Hitman/JLA issue includes one of the greatest monologues from Superman ever:

Up here, where the air is razor-thin. Where men believe themselves invisible. I take a last, sharp, frozen breath— and hold it. The seas are sapphire, the fields and forests emeralds. The Himalayas gleam like diamonds. The strange blue world to which my father sent me. If you knew how much you were loved, not one of you would raise a hand in rage again.

edited 27th Apr '17 4:24:02 PM by alliterator

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#69448: Apr 27th 2017 at 4:43:09 PM

RE the idea of a Deliberate Values Dissonance Cap, I had been thinking at one point how Daniel Sousa of Agent Carter is kind of deliberately pretty close to Steve sans powers and like Steve (and his creators) he's an intellectual from an "Ethnic American" background, and he's shown to be a bit of a hipster, liking to listen to music in "colored joints" and immediately wearing Hawaiian shirts non-stop after moving to Los Angeles. In terms of the former, IIRC that lines up with Steve's music preferences as shown in Winter Soldier, so maybe the connection is closer than it appears on that score.

And with Sousa as a model, I'd imagine that this kind of Cap would probably be accidentally insulting on occasion due to having a Positive Discrimination/ You Are a Credit to Your Race attitude toward women and/or minorities- because this is a person who was a liberal intellectual in the 1940's. But yeah, there's no way he'd be a jingoistic asshole. Because that's the kind of personality they'd highly dislike

That being said, IIRC there was a line where Ultimate!Cap comments on being unintelligent (mentally disabled?) prior to getting the super-soldier serum, which underscores the extent to which Millar was going for a very different take on Steve.

edited 27th Apr '17 4:45:46 PM by Hodor2

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#69449: Apr 27th 2017 at 4:44:38 PM

God damn it, I still want another season of Agent Carter.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#69450: Apr 27th 2017 at 4:49:29 PM

The thing about Cap is other writers had already made that same basic point with 50's Cap and John Walker, in both cases trying to demonstrate why a bigoted jingoist who loves America and believes it can never ever do any wrong is the exact kind of person who shouldn't be Captain America.

So while "Captain America if he were a bigoted jerkass like most people from his generation" is an interesting What If situation, it'd already been done at least twice before Millar started writing the character.


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