Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules
still apply.
- This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
- While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread
. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
- Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.
If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.
Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
![]()
I don't disagree with anything you're saying, but if the word 'Nazi' is losing its power in America, I think the term 'fascist' has even less.
The people who laugh off the parallels between Nazi Germany and the rise of the surveillance state are probably going to keep laughing no matter how you phrase it. I don't think they're the people whose minds you focus on changing in this conversation.
edited 21st Apr '17 7:17:09 PM by Unsung
I suppose whether "Nazi" or "Fascist" is the term that functions best in North America will be up to debate.
But even then, I maintain they should be called Fascists or something of the sort for semantics's and clarity's sake.
"All you Fascists bound to lose."Even if you discount retcons and go with Hydra having originated in Nazi Germany, that'd be over 70 years ago. Go back far enough in any longstanding organization's history and you'll find stuff its modern members aren't proud of. Steve Rogers calls himself Captain America and wears the symbol of America all over his uniform, but that doesn't mean he wants to steal a bunch of land from the Indians. And Matt Murdock is Catholic, but I doubt he'd approve of the Crusades or the Inquistion.
![]()
They're Nazis historically, regardless of their ideology. That's really the point, for me. 'Nazi' isn't a coat you wear and take off when you're done. It's a badge of shame you carry, something that should rightfully call any credibility you possess into question.
Really, really not the same. Honestly, are we actually trying to defend Hydra's record, here? They're a New World Order global conspiracy that wanted to laser people in the brain on the off chance they might commit a crime, they're Nazi collaborators if not outright Nazis themselves, and they're a not-exactly-Satanic cult that practiced what amounts to human sacrifice for centuries while worming their way into high society. All they want to do is rule the world. They don't strike me as having a lot to recommend them for the position.
edited 21st Apr '17 7:32:56 PM by Unsung
Here's the thing, though: the term "Nazi" has become pretty synonymous with "fascism" in the United States. Calling someone a Nazi isn't saying that they are part of the National Socialist German Workers' Party (which is the strict definition), it's saying that they believe in fascism, in the state over the individual (see: Coulson's class lessons), and in blaming society's problems on the Other (it doesn't have to be Jews, but any minority class, be it black people, gay people, Latinos, Muslims, the trans community, etc). These are all things that the Nazi Party did, so they have become indelibly associated with the Nazis.
edited 21st Apr '17 7:34:07 PM by alliterator
![]()
Yes, they're an evil organization that wants to take over the world, abolish freedom and democracy, and slaughter millions in the process, but they're not usually racist about it.
It's also associated with being incredibly strict, i.e. "Grammar Nazi" or "Soup Nazi".
edited 21st Apr '17 7:34:58 PM by RavenWilder
edited 21st Apr '17 7:35:44 PM by alliterator
Cut off one head and they'll grow another. Hydra's nothing if not adaptable. They'll adopt whatever political position (and level of racism) is going to help them achieve their ends. If it's convenient, I'm sure they'd be all too happy to work with whoever's going to give them resources or otherwise put them in power. If that means wiping out an entire race, creed, colour, culture, orientation, religion, nation, whatever, then so be it. If they're equal opportunity, it's because nobody has a monopoly on exploiting their fellow man.
![]()
![]()
It's not like Jiaying being racist makes other racism okay. It's bad to kill all Inhumans, and it's bad to kill all humans. It's bad to treat A.I.s like they're not alive. This is not hard.
edited 21st Apr '17 8:42:19 PM by Unsung
Here's the part where I get confused: So is Fascism.
I understand the argument and concept but I can't condone the perversion of the meaning of the word Nazi for reasons I've already elaborated.
"All you Fascists bound to lose."*shrug* Fair enough, but for the American audience, I still think 'Nazi' brings up a specific set of crimes that 'fascist' simply doesn't. They're both bad— I'm not arguing that. But I think there's something to be said for giving people an obvious bogeyman. It helps people if they can put a face to their fears. Hitler's a pretty good one.
edited 21st Apr '17 8:38:09 PM by Unsung
Before we move forward, I think I should clarify something, being German:
Nazi = Member of Hitler's party or someone who did atrocities in Hitler's name during WWII (and yes, the latter definition DOES apply to Hydra in general if you want to see it as the same organisation.
Neo Nazi = Someone who admires what Hitler has done and is ready continue his work (though in this case you can replace Hitler with the Red Scull, I guess...)
Fascism = A very ill-defined word based on Mussolini's rise to power. It is usually used to describe dictatorships with a heavy emphasis on superiority by people disagreeing with said government.
Neo-Fascism = An even more ill-defined world which is used for a number of racist and authoritarian movements. Nearly interchangeable with Neo-Nazi for exactly that reason (meaning a Neo-Nazi movie is usually also considered Neo-Fascist, but not every Neo-Fascist movement can also be considered Neo-Nazism).
Bottom line: You are all right. Hydra being an organisation which wants an authoritarian regime is inherently Fascist or Neo-Fascist. It is also historically a Nazi organisation and is still following basically the same ideals than back them, except that they modernized some aspects of their ideology to make it more palpable. And personally I think that the show is right to keep reminding the audience what Hydra actually is, especially in a reality which pretty much likes like Nazi-Germany. The random control of people, Inhumans being forced to "register", putting political dissidents into prisons, Fitz acting like Doctor Mengele - at times this is currently a hard watch, but I can honestly say that as a German I am very glad that they do no pull their punches and show how a lot of what is currently happening in a lot of countries are steps towards another regime like this. Especially because Americans in general tend to have little understanding for the mechanism which made Hitler possible in the first place.
I am sorry, it is not my intention to continue this discussion, but being German, I felt that this needed to be said. Call it whatever you want, but current trend terrifies me, and for very good reason.
On a more positive note: I enjoy the heck out of the Agents of Hydra arc and I am really glad that more and more people turn in live. This might be the push ABC needs to give it another season. Perhaps even a full season instead of a quick wrap-up. And of Ao S does get another round, it will be the first Marvel show of the current era which reaches the 100 episodes mark. This is impressive once you consider how much Network TV is currently struggling. I just wish that this tendency to treat Ao S as a punch-line stops, because the show really deserves better. Weather you see it as Superhero show or not, in the realm of Comic book shows, it is easily one of the best...if not THE best, considering that a lot of shows which are currently praised are still early in their run.
Also, I reserved my ticket for Got G....next Thursday, 17:00 (I actually squeezed it in early because I have training that evening, so the second showing wasn't an option).
Especially if it's going to be more experimental and introduce a lot more heroes. There isn't going to be any large Myth Arc for it like there have been with the first three phases, at least not until they get the rights to Galactus and even then it's probably going to only affect the heaviest hitters, not folks like Kamala or the Netflix stuff.
Someone suggested this could finally be a good place for a Black Widow movie if they are no longer building to a universe-shattering Myth Arc. Might make for smaller movies finally getting a chance.
I wonder if Infinity War is going to be a bit of a bloodbath to clear the slate for newer characters to take larger roles. I would't be surprised if they dropped Iron Man - RDJ has gotten very expensive, and the character going out fighting a threat he didn't cause would qualify as a high note for Stark. Chris Evans has made no secret of getting tired of playing Cap,, so that's also a possibility, especially as there are two popular characters (Bucky and Falcon) with the ability to take up the Cap role.
I know killing characters isn't the only way to create dramatic impact, but at the point when you've spent nearly a decade building up a potentially galaxy-destroying threat, having it fight a couple dozen heroes and cause zero fatalities really makes the antagonist seem weak.
edited 22nd Apr '17 7:55:59 PM by Galadriel

And then you'll have people saying even using the term fascist is too harsh. Nazi or fascist, I don't care, they're still bad and the comparisons with Tony Stark and Colleen Wing to Grant Ward and John Garrett are a blatant false dichotomy.
Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?