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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
Seriously, this is flat out apologia. There is no "middle of the road" here, one case is flat out rape and another case is flat out Nazism. There is no middle spot to be found. Golden Mean Fallacy.
Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
(4)
- Back in WWII. HYDRA =/= Nazis. Johann himself says "we both knew HYDRA could grow no further in Hitler's shadow."
- Ward and Garrett didn't even believe in the modern HYDRA's mission. Ward specifically questions Garrett on this once he starts going crazy. This is also demonstrated when Garrett makes fun of the HYDRA soldiers for their zealotry.
- Ward went and killed members of that group, breaking any alliance he had with them.
- Ward nor Garrett pledges to any sort of Nazi philosophy, creed, or ideal.
People were calling Ward a Nazi well into Season 3.
Or, I like to think and argue about the context of a scene.
edited 21st Apr '17 2:41:43 PM by Soble
I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!Dude, they worked with the Nazis. Red Skull was a Nazi who was too evil to stick with them. Ward and Garrett might not have shared Nazi ideology, but they worked for a Neo-Nazi organization. They're Nazis.
And no, I looked at the scene in context. It's rape. It's flat out rape.
edited 21st Apr '17 2:40:10 PM by AdricDePsycho
Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?Edit 5,402:
So I guess that means Tony Stark is a terrorist. He worked for the Ten Rings even though his life depended on it. Colleen Wing is also The Hand. She worked with a group she believed was a "good faction" but it doesn't matter that she felt bad about it and realized Bakuto was a prick and severed ties with them, she's still a member of The Hand.
In fact anyone who works with a terrorist organization in any medium no matter the reason or purpose should automatically be labeled with the same banner.
And before we get to False Dichotomy, no, you are saying that two evil guys who work for a group but don't actually believe in that group or represent anything about that group, even after cutting ties with said group, still effectively represent that group. That's what i'm gathering.
And that's not the argument. Forgive me if that was lost in my whirlwind of edits. But my argument is that "Yes Men" is not rape apologetic nor problematic. I admit I forgot about Lorelai shagging Ward and I edited my post to reflect that. There is no scene or dialogue that has Ward blamed for being raped, and if there was a scene of May blaming him for not miraculously freeing himself from mind control then it's weird that the narrative blames Ward for this, but not Fitz who was under the same control.
Even if there was, I didn't nor would I expect the episode to treat that as a serious issue because a huge part of Ward's character is that he is very messed up and doesn't react to things the way a normal person might.
Thus,
Is actually pretty offensive to me.
edited 21st Apr '17 3:33:27 PM by Soble
I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!Here's the difference: Stark was kidnapped and forced into working with them, but didn't and just built the Iron Man suit to bust out. Wing didn't know that the Hand were evil in the first place. Garrett and Ward knew about Hydra, went with it willingly, and were unrepentant. This is a total false dichotomy that makes absolutely no sense. Let's not turn this back around and act like I'm the one at fault here, this entire argument is saying that the people working for the neo-Nazi group aren't real "Nazis".
edited 21st Apr '17 2:50:49 PM by AdricDePsycho
Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?![]()
Coercion, remorse, ignorance, those can all be mitigating factors, to varying degrees. None of those things apply to Ward or Garrett. They worked for Hydra, maybe not because they believed in it, but of their own free will, for their own gain, knowing full well how many other people were going to be harmed by it.
edited 21st Apr '17 2:52:40 PM by Unsung
Stark was running "Missiles R Us" and only stopped because someone returned a purchase.
Colleen knew she was working at Evil Ninja Mart and was convinced she'd transferred to Good Ninja Mart. Quite willingly. It just turned out Good Ninja Mart was really just a front for Evil Ninja Mart so she bailed.
Garrett joined HYDRA because SHIELD's health plan didn't include dental. Ward joined because guns are cool and Garrett promised him entry into the NRA.
You're only dividing these because Colleen and Stark didn't immediately know who they working for and had bigger regrets about it. You're saying that actively sharing that organizations goals doesn't distinguish "member" from "non-member," while voluntary participation does. I disagree.
I will also restate that neither Ward nor Garrett fitsthe definition or creed of a Nazi and calling them that through mere association is silly, but since we're not going to agree on that, I will say that even if you did call Ward a crazy, bearded Nazi by Seasons 2 and 3, over the course of those seasons we witness him proceeding to murder every blond, blue-eyed Aryan he can find, burn German towns while leaving Jewish camps unscathed, and leaving a few Nazi officers bound and gagged for the Allies to find and interrogate.
This doesn't make him a good person. This doesn't make him not a rape victim. It does make him the most un-Nazilike Nazi to have ever Nazi'd in the history of Nazism.
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
edited 21st Apr '17 3:32:16 PM by Soble
I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!Yes, that's still considered a ship. There's romantic shipping, casual shipping, bro shipping, etc. Even just plain old Friendshipping can be a ship. While the term is usually taken to be romantic, shipping, at its core, is just about really enjoying seeing two characters interact in some way or another.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.The second example (Colleen Wing), however, is true — she was a willing member of the Hand, even if she didn't know about their more evil segments. When she does not, however, she leaves, unlike Ward.
Here is the dialogue for that scene:
MAY: It's fine.
WARD: It's not. I never intended... I didn't want to hurt ...
MAY: You didn't. That was never a risk with me. I told you that.
WARD: You did.
MAY: Seems like we're done here.
WARD: Okay.
MAY: But if what Lorelei said was true... you were more honest with her than you are with yourself.
There is no scene where anyone is blamed for being brainwashed, unless you count the scene where Sif says that "All men are weak."
edited 21st Apr '17 3:24:47 PM by alliterator
Let's put aside that the episode never addressed what happened to the other victims of Lorelei (like the poor guy who was freshly married). She slept with Ward and yes, that is rape, no matter which character is hit by it...and back then nobody knew what Ward truly was (though the episode was the first hint). That the whole mindrape and real rape thing never gets addressed is a problem. A huge problem. (That they had to act like idiots so that it could even happen is an even bigger problem).
Though, for the record, May doesn't blame Ward for getting raped. She breaks up with him because it was revealed that he is actually no interest in her, but is in love with someone else from the team (Skye). Understandable May is not in the mood continuing the relationship after this.
In regards to Hydra/Nazis thing, Hydra is certainly Nazi-adjacent, even having a lot membership overlap, but it predates Nazism by centuries, and, I would say, has a pretty different ideology. As I understand it, Hydra's core ideology isn't based at all on racial superiority and German nationalism.
edited 21st Apr '17 4:58:14 PM by FoxBoxKid
Make mine Marvel.There are two arguments that have nothing to do with each other here:
1) AOS trivialized rape in Lorelei's episode. This is true.
2) HYDRA are Nazis. This is not. They're Neo-Fascists.
edited 21st Apr '17 5:09:29 PM by Gaon
"All you Fascists bound to lose."Hydra worked alongside the Nazis during WW 2 but given how they're willing to hire women and minorities I think they've dropped the whole Aryan Supremacy stuff. They're just generic fascists now.
If being associated with Aryan supremacists, Hitler, and the Holocaust bothers them, then they can start by dropping the genocide and world domination platforms. Until then, I see no reason to let them disassociate themselves from this particular set of deeply heinous crimes just because they want to claim ideological differences. Predating the Nazis doesn't somehow bypass the fact that they became Nazis, that they didn't stoke the fires of that hatred, or that they're above doing the same again. They used the Nazis for their own ends— I don't know if that makes them worse than quote-unquote 'real' Nazis, but it definitely doesn't make them any better.
Seriously, what do we gain by defending Hydra from charges of Nazism? I'm in no way eager to let the organization off the hook for their past crimes, least of all when they're gloating onscreen about passing unnoticed and unpunished through to the present day.
edited 21st Apr '17 5:38:58 PM by Unsung
That's exactly the problem. "Defending them from the nazi label" somehow implies that them being Neo-Fascists makes them morally superior in any way, shape, or form. Fascism is just as heinous and liable for the destruction of innocents as Nazism. Not being a Nazi does not make you a good guy, there's an entire rainbow of odious beliefs outside of this strange Nazi-non-Nazi dichotomy.
This is a big problem with North American culture in general: People are taught "racism is bad" and "Nazism is bad", but without having any clear footing on what those words mean. So they just become buzzwords devoid of meaning.
Calling HYDRA, a neo-fascist organization, Nazi banalizes the word and just muddles its meaning. And it cleans up fascism by implying it's somehow morally superior. And That's Terrible.
"All you Fascists bound to lose."Fair point, and not one I took into account in my argument. A separate discussion, I think, though.
US-centric as the language might be, 'Nazi' does still have greater currency in American thought than 'fascist'. It was Nazis that Americans' fathers, grandfathers, and great-grandfathers fought and beat, Neo-Nazis who infiltrated American culture, Nazis who America is afraid of becoming. Fascism, for better or worse, is something that happened to other people. The sanitization of 'fascism' as a term in America has already occurred. Saying that fascism is just as bad and closer to Hydra's current ideology is a fair point— but a point that might need to be made separately from not letting Hydra slip out from under their past crimes under Nazi Germany.
Part of the reason this is important: lest we forget, the whole point of The Winter Soldier is how Hydra's ideology managed to skate out of the collapse of Germany and into the world's two emerging superpowers in the US and Germany. It's not merely some fictional organization that used to be Nazis, but a metaphor for the rise of Realpolitik. And while it might seem dismissive to other countries— I'm not an American myself— I think using the term that resonates best with Americans is a vital and timely part of this discussion.
edited 21st Apr '17 6:38:36 PM by Unsung
See, I often find the opposite problem with using "Nazi" to describe HYDRA. You'll see a very recurring point in reviews of TWS is people saying the HYDRA twist spoils the movie because it reduces the moral ambiguity to just "the villains are Nazis". Because American culture has turned the Nazis into such mythical boogeymen that people don't take it seriously (Godwin's Law, Hitler Ate Sugar and whatnot) and are convinced that this is laughable and unrealistic. Exactly because the word and concept of Nazi has become so loosely applied and defined that in the minds of most Americans it's as realistic as describing someone as "The Devil".
Of course, it's worth reminding that it's unlikely Nazism will ever take hold of the US in a major political way (which is not to say its beliefs don't run through the system's veins from time to time). The current threat (i.e Donald Trump) is not a pseudo-Nazi, despite all his horrible racism, he's a proto-fascist allá his beloved Putin. That's the current political menace of the modern age, not Nazis and that's the critique TWS tries to make.
TWS doesn't try to argue that the American Government has decided to cleanse untermensch and the impure from the face of the earth (i.e Nazism), but rather that this path of "sacrificing liberty for Order" is veering us dangerously close to becoming tyrannical, obsessed with a perverted sense of order and stability above all other standards of morality (i.e fascism).
And it's not like Fascism hasn't had its monstrous shapes throughout history (Nazism as traditionally understood is a subset of Fascism after all, nevermind Mussolini's regime).
When people ascribe the Nazi label to HYDRA, besides being semantically incorrect, also often leads to that effect of people missing the forest for the trees in the vein of "TWS's critique doesn't work because the CIA isn't staffed by literal, actual Nazis!" (i.e the Card-Carrying Villain folks who seek to destroy all lesser races Nazis).
"All you Fascists bound to lose."

It's pretty straightforward that having sex with someone while mind-controlled constitutes being raped. And May's reaction treated the situation like he was cheating.
Between that and Shield being, as mentioned, so overwhelmingly stupid that they couldn't think of sending an all-women team against someone wgose power was mind-controlling men, I dropped AOS after that episode and didn't start watching again until after Winter Soldier.
Also, yes, Hydra are Nazis. They were founded by Nazis, they were reestablished by Nazis (Zola) after WWII, and they act like Nazis.
edited 21st Apr '17 2:38:43 PM by Galadriel