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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#68801: Apr 17th 2017 at 12:00:18 AM

Or it's subverting your expectations.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#68802: Apr 17th 2017 at 5:21:38 AM

I mean, I dig the idea of the Judas Bullets, they're pretty cool. Didn't they show up on Agents of SHIELD?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#68803: Apr 17th 2017 at 6:40:06 AM

Yes

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#68804: Apr 17th 2017 at 6:41:18 AM

Anyone got a clip of when they show up? I need to refresh my memory on this. I think they were in the episode where we find out (and I'm spoiler tagging this as a precaution) Mace isn't an Inhuman.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#68805: Apr 17th 2017 at 6:55:59 AM

There's no real reason why neither Cottonmouth or Diamondback tried to poison drown or suffocate Luke but I sort of get the overall idea

If people like Luke are going to be showing up you need a good reliable weapon in your holster. Something you can point and shoot. Having to set up a death trap is not reliable

That requires prep time and planning and luck.

If you have a gun that can kill the unshootable raw raw then the next time a Luke shows up you can just shoot him

Luke isn't just a lone hero of Harlem. He represents how the world is changing. And you gotta change with it

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#68806: Apr 17th 2017 at 7:02:17 AM

So...Diamondback's grand plan to take down Luke is to wear a power glove and a hoodie, punch a cop, and shout that he's Luke Cage and hope that nobody notices he looks nothing like Luke (or, failing that, the cops are racist enough to think that all black people look alike), all to frame the guy.

...this is stupid. Insanely stupid. On so many goddamn levels, this is stupid. I mean, Diamondback is still a better villain than Nobu because he actually has a fucking motive, but this is still fucking idiotic.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#68807: Apr 17th 2017 at 7:06:15 AM

I thought it was hilarious. But yeah, it was still stupid.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#68808: Apr 17th 2017 at 7:10:13 AM

I'm just bouncing back between loving and hating Diamondback. On the one hand, when he's being creepy or threatening without trying too hard, he's legitimately fun to watch. When he's being stupid as hell, he annoys me.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#68809: Apr 17th 2017 at 7:14:26 AM

Same here. I think the problem is that, every other character seems to treat Diamondback like he's this uber competent criminal mastermind, whilst every single action he takes on screen is nonsensical at best.

edited 17th Apr '17 7:20:46 AM by Nightwire

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#68810: Apr 17th 2017 at 7:19:13 AM

Well, his plan does work. The cops are just racist enough and nobody got a really good look at him. In that sense it's a good plan.

[up] Might be best to think of him as akin to the Joker. Chaotic enough that you can't easily predict him. Savvy enough that you can't discount him. And more concerned with fucking with a brooding hero than getting business done

I also suspect that Shades was the one who handled most of the little picture details

edited 17th Apr '17 7:22:25 AM by Bocaj

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#68811: Apr 17th 2017 at 7:23:09 AM

Diamondback as he was alluded to earlier in the season and the Diamondback that shows up later just seems like two completely different characters. It's hard to see this obsessive nutjob managing to build a criminal empire.

edited 17th Apr '17 7:27:49 AM by Nightwire

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#68812: Apr 17th 2017 at 7:24:45 AM

Shades was pretty much the Wesley to Diamondback and Cottonmouth's Wilson Fisk, just more ambitious.

Also yeah, I'd be surprised by the plan working if I wasn't already living in an area with people that are twenty times as racist. Diamondback pretty much exploited the "All black people look alike" stereotype to his advantage. It's stupidly brilliant.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#68813: Apr 17th 2017 at 8:01:12 AM

It's still stupid. Worse, more or less everyone has to act stupid so that it works. That's what I mean with lazy writing, in the second half of the season nothing really feels earned, there are some great scenes, but there is no built up to said scenes.

Also, I actually think that what happens in Harlem's Paradise would have been a better finale, but nope, we have to drag the whole thing out a little bit longer to a finale which I think is by far the most boring of all the Netflix shows...and yes, that does include Iron Fist. At least they end with a nice montage....

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#68814: Apr 17th 2017 at 8:04:06 AM

I still feel far more enthralled with Mariah than Diamondback. Mariah starts off in the first half of the season as a typical slimy politician with little depth, but then she becomes even slimier and more morally bankrupt as it goes on, and it's just so fun to watch. I hate her but I love to hate her.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#68815: Apr 17th 2017 at 8:07:04 AM

[up] Well, I'll give the show credit for one thing: It is really sneaky because the origin story of Cottonmouth is also the origin story of Mariah, but it takes a while until you realize that.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#68816: Apr 17th 2017 at 8:08:47 AM

There's no real reason why neither Cottonmouth or Diamondback tried to poison drown or suffocate Luke but I sort of get the overall idea

How and when would either of them have done that? Luke is perfectly capable of surviving a rocket-propelled grenade and breaking through walls. I remember at least one character coming up with theories on how to take Luke out but not ways to make those strategies plausible, and Cottonmouth's finances had already taken a hit by the time he realized Luke was a threat (hence, he had to attack Luke on the street rather than send guys after him).

Poisoning might have been an option - good luck poisoning Luke's drink, or poisoning him without poisoning a bunch of others. Diamondback, granted, might've gone with poisoning a bunch of people just to get to Luke considering how batsh't [Diamondback] is.

Suffocation would be just as impractical as drowning Luke.

Cottonmouth isn't the Saw killer. He's not going to have a box readily available that he can stuff Luke into and quickly fill with water, at least not quickly enough to drown Luke before he breaks out of it, and he's not going to be able to knock Luke unconscious and leave him in the box, or drown him in the bay. He could maybe gas a room but he'd have to pay someone for that, find an isolated area and release it with Luke there or risk killing a bunch of innocent people - Cottonmouth wasn't out to kill random people for the sake of his vendetta, the funeral scene proves that. Suffocation would involve physically restraining Luke long enough for it to take place - again something neither Diamondback or Cottonmouth were capable of doing.

edited 17th Apr '17 8:19:29 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#68817: Apr 17th 2017 at 8:09:54 AM

Honestly, I'm not hating the second half as much as others have. It feels more consistent than Jessica Jones stretching the Killgrave plot with contrived bullshit or Daredevil bringing the Hand in and juggling a good plot with a bad one. It's still a step down from the glory of Cottonmouth, but it's not as bad as I've heard it to be.

Daredevil Season One is probably the most consistent season out of all the Netflix shows, though.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#68818: Apr 17th 2017 at 8:14:07 AM

Now you know my pain. The actor's pretty great, but he just does not exist in the same MCU as the rest of the cast.

I suppose the one thing against drowning, poisoning, suffocation, etc. is that you have to be able to keep Luke bound in place while it's happening. Which... How do you lock him down in the first place? The viewer knows a shotgun blast to the underside of the skull will knock him out, but other than Jessica and Claire, nobody else can know that with any certainty. And if you know that a Judas bullet will work, but only temporarily...how do you even know that he can't recover from drowning or poisoning? I don't think he could, but point is it's a lot of trouble to go to if you don't know if it will work.

Judas bullet, much simpler. Aim for the head next time.

[up]x5 I actually like the final scene of Luke Cage. It's the moment where Diamondback's cartoon comic-book villainy and Luke's understated modern heroism finally meet in the middle, and having the streets packed with crowds makes it a battle for Harlem's heart and soul. Luke Cage never stops being about community, and I actually think Diamondback aside they do actually do a pretty good job of (albeit too slowly) continuing to examine those themes. The way Diamondback frames Luke is stupid, but what we see of the cops' and Harlem's reaction to it feels (sadly) believable.

Diamondback doesn't ruin the show for me. Just feel like he was a misstep. He suffers a lot from having to follow Cottonmouth, and he sidelines Mariah, which grated on me considerably at the time.

edited 17th Apr '17 8:22:22 AM by Unsung

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#68819: Apr 17th 2017 at 8:20:40 AM

I like the second half of Luke Cage as much as I did the first, but I'm aware that opinion is such a minority that I don't bother speaking up about it.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#68820: Apr 17th 2017 at 8:40:06 AM

[up][up][up] Well, your expectations were low. Imagine having this strong start and then ending up with THAT with no forewarning whatsoever.

They only needed to find a reason why Luke would visit Harlem's paradise, giving Cottonmouth the opportunity to slip him something in his drink easy peasy. Though I actually would have preferred it if they had went for the "systematically target the people close to Luke" route.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#68821: Apr 17th 2017 at 8:44:42 AM

Eh. Those are both super-cliche, and take the story in a 'You can't trust anyone' direction that I'm glad Luke Cage didn't end up in.

One of the great things about Luke and Cottonmouth is that there was no way for the latter to happen. The people closest to Luke were close to Stokes, too. They both loved and believed in the community.

I like to think that Mariah still wants what's best for Harlem as well, in her way. We'll see if she can hold onto that.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#68822: Apr 17th 2017 at 8:51:34 AM

Step 1: Fire a smoke bomb at Luke with some sort of gas and send hordes of mooks at him.

Step 2: Watch as he gets dazed by the gas.

Step 3: Profit.

Or

Step 1: Use shock weapons on him.

Step 2: Watch him get electrocuted.

Step 3: Profit.

Or:

Step 1: Set up a disguised sinkhole inside the club. Make it so that sinkhole leads Luke directly to a pool of acid.

Step 2: Invite Luke over and watch as he falls in the sinkhole whilst doing a goofy scream.

Step 3: Profit.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#68823: Apr 17th 2017 at 8:58:27 AM

The mooks would be affected by the gas too, wouldn't they? And shock weapons might work, but it's the same problem as any other close range weapon with Luke— will you be able to bring him down before he effortlessly tosses you aside? The pit trap would be my favourite of the three— doesn't even have to be acid, water's a lot cheaper. Though building it in the club requires one to be willing to build a pit trap in your club. And maybe the characters will reach that desperation point eventually, but I can see why that's not their first move. Remember, they've gotta live here too. Renovating your neighbourhood into the house from Home Alone is a big move.

One I could see Mariah making, though, so maybe next season.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#68824: Apr 17th 2017 at 9:07:28 AM

Well, that's what you get gas masks for. And the electric weapons would presumably overwhelm him by sheer numbers (he can effortlessly toss you aside, but he can't effortlessly toss you all aside at the same time). I'm sure there are long-range electric weapons that could be used, too.

I think the argument of these kind of traps being too desperate, expensive or elaborate would work a lot better if Cottonmouth didn't unravel mentally over the season and didn't see fit to buy increasingly more expensive things as it goes (he's trying to buy a Judas Bullet the last time we see him).

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#68825: Apr 17th 2017 at 9:08:25 AM

I think targeting the people close to Luke would have been better because there would have been an actual chance that one of them would die. The whole acid bath episode was so boring because they wanted me to care about the possibility of him dying even though we all knew that he wouldn't.


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