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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#68751: Apr 14th 2017 at 12:15:03 PM

You need to find a balance...no matter how you put it, putting people on lists is wrong. Putting them in prison without trial or due process is also wrong. On the other hand there should be someone the Avengers have to answer to, but not in the sense that someone is ordering them around, but in the sense that they have a rulebook and someone reviews their mission and looks into the question if they followed the rulebook. And if they didn't, there has to be a regulation how to deal with it. That is fair. But putting the decision what the Avengers should do and what not into some random persons hand won't prevent any causalities. Depending on the person in charge it might even lead to more dead.

For example in one Ao S episode it is mentioned that Fury always had a number for "acceptable causalities" for any mission. And Coulson says his number is zero. I think that Cap would agree. I don't think that Ross would.

edited 14th Apr '17 12:16:09 PM by Swanpride

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#68752: Apr 14th 2017 at 12:19:43 PM

Zero acceptable casualties in a paramilitary organization is a pretty asinine

I mean, it's a lovely sentiment, but it also sends a pretty shitty message to the men under your command.

Remember Cap's speech in Avengers about being the guy to lay down on the wire and let the other guy climb over you? Yeah, that kind of self-sacrifice is intolerable if acceptable casualties is considered zero. It means you are to put survival first, completion of the mission second. Under no circumstances are you to give your life in the line of duty.

edited 14th Apr '17 12:23:07 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#68753: Apr 14th 2017 at 12:26:04 PM

[up] The acceptable causalities revers to civilian victims, not to combatants.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#68754: Apr 14th 2017 at 12:28:05 PM

Given Cap's reaction to the footage of damage from their previous battles, I don't think he takes nothing but zero casualties. He tries to avoid them (I think he himself only killed three people in all of The Winter Soldier), but he accepts that they're sometimes unavoidable and will try to at least minimize what happens by orders like closing a portal with Tony still on the other side or Helicarriers shot down with himself still aboard.

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#68755: Apr 14th 2017 at 12:28:38 PM

Remember Cap's speech in Avengers about being the guy to lay down on the wire and let the other guy climb over you? Yeah, that kind of self-sacrifice is intolerable if acceptable casualties is considered zero. It means you are to put survival first, completion of the mission second. Under no circumstances are you to give your life in the line of duty.

Coulson is the one who gave the speech about how they were all recruited "to be the shield." He's accepted SHIELD agents dying in the line of duty before (though he's never happy about it). It's the job of the shield to take the hit, and he knows that.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#68756: Apr 14th 2017 at 12:31:19 PM

Again, since I my post ended up at the bottom: This refers to civilian victims, not Agents or hostiles. And I think Cap agrees. He knows that sometimes you can't avoid innocent victims, but his goal is always to keep the number to zero if possible. Fury was actually doing the math how many civilians could die for the mission still being considered a success.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#68757: Apr 14th 2017 at 12:33:13 PM

If that's how Coulson meant it - I don't actually remember that line - then he's using the term incorrectly. Acceptable casualties refers to how much damage to your forces is considered to be within the parameters of a successful mission.

There is no threshold for acceptable civilian casualties. It's generally agreed by just about every branch of military and paramilitary that I know of that minimizing harm to civilians is the top priority. Like, Coulson would have to be a complete f*cking moron to honestly think Fury sat in his chair going, "Hmm...only five thousand civilians have been killed. That's okay. Let me know when it hits ten thousand."

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Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#68758: Apr 14th 2017 at 12:40:40 PM

HYDRA had corrupted everyone's way of thinking, remember? Like dropping a missile on a civilian convoy to hit a terrorist leader. Are a dozen civilian lives worth getting the terrorist? Arguments could be made—and apparently, Fury made them.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#68759: Apr 14th 2017 at 12:42:45 PM

Okay, if we're talking about foreign civilians, that's different. That's where the cruel mathematics of war enter the picture. Dropping a bomb on an enemy city is typically weighed much differently than dropping one on your own.

I don't honestly remember the context of Coulson's acceptable casualties line.

edited 14th Apr '17 12:43:30 PM by TobiasDrake

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Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#68760: Apr 14th 2017 at 12:52:26 PM

[up] Midseason finale of the second season, when they are on the Island with the underground city. Bobby tells him that Fury would have a number for acceptable causalities (referring to the people living in the island), Coulson says the number is zero.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#68761: Apr 14th 2017 at 1:09:51 PM

"Ye Who Enter Here"

  • Coulson: There are 3 million people on this island, and I won't let Hydra turn them into collateral damage.
  • Morse: With all due respect, sir, this kind of op, Fury would have a number.
  • Coulson: A number?
  • Morse: Of acceptable losses.
  • Coulson: My number is zero. For the record, I hate that phrase.

Sure enough. Objection withdrawn.

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Pseudopartition Screaming Into The Void from The Cretaeceous Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Screaming Into The Void
#68762: Apr 14th 2017 at 1:25:20 PM

So wait, was it likely that all of the people on the island would die? I'm pretty sure Fury's acceptable number is a lot less than 3 million, Bobbi.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#68763: Apr 14th 2017 at 1:26:17 PM

What exactly is wrong with the Avengers taking orders from someone else like any other military or police force? These people wouldn't even be a team if not for an established authority. By contrast, they've shown following their judgement doesn't always produce perfect results as seen with Sokovia and Lagos.

Cross (Don’t ask)
#68764: Apr 14th 2017 at 1:26:56 PM

What happened afterwards again?

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#68765: Apr 14th 2017 at 1:37:56 PM

[up][up] The one who commands the police is a police officer/detective. the one who commands soldiers is a soldier/general. So shouldn't the one who commands the Avengers be an Avenger? Also, I don't have necessarily an objection to it, I just point out that it actually makes no difference if Steve leads the Avengers or someone else does it regarding to collateral damage aso. But Steve is actually in the field, General Ross isn't, and his attitude towards powered people is more than a little bit questionable. General Ross is in no way less likely to make a mistake than the Avengers are...as Steve said, it is just shifting the responsibility.

[up] After the talk? Well....there was a earth quake and the most useless heroic dead ever......but I guess the people on the island survived just fine.

edited 14th Apr '17 1:40:29 PM by Swanpride

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#68766: Apr 14th 2017 at 1:41:03 PM

Go high enough in either of those chains of command and you hit a politician.

EDIT: Seriously, most useless heroic death. Dying in the line of duty is one thing, but that character died in the line of pulling off a really sweet spin kick for no reason.

edited 14th Apr '17 1:41:44 PM by TobiasDrake

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Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#68767: Apr 14th 2017 at 1:43:43 PM

[up] Yeah...but those organisations work for a country....the Avengers are supposed to work for the world. Plus, we are talking about in the field/mission decisions. Those politicians usually have at least a general sitting beside them to get advice. Unless they are called Trump...then they ask their daughter and just throw out the biggest bomb in the arsenal which isn't nuclear.

Well, he had a reason, but like I said, Hindsight is 20/20.....

edited 14th Apr '17 1:44:40 PM by Swanpride

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#68768: Apr 14th 2017 at 1:52:27 PM

I think you mean, "Hindsight is 2020". grin

Generals don't make decisions in the field. That's what sergeants are for. At least in the U.S., our military is broken out into officers who sit behind a desk and make big-picture calls about where units will be deployed, how many units, what the overall goal to achieve is, etc. etc. and NCOs who lead the men in combat and call the shots for how the battle will actually be won.

For the purposes of Civil War, Ross is the Avengers' commanding officer while Stark is their NCO.

Also, there's a bit of a rivalry between the two. You never call an NCO "Sir". Learned that one the hard way, and I'll never forget the words, "Don't you Sir me, I WORK for a living."

edited 14th Apr '17 1:53:37 PM by TobiasDrake

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Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#68769: Apr 14th 2017 at 2:37:35 PM

Okay but in fairness

It was a really sweet spin kick

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Pseudopartition Screaming Into The Void from The Cretaeceous Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#68771: Apr 14th 2017 at 3:22:17 PM

Actually, I think the actor wanted to leave the show for some reason. I don't remember all the details.

But in-universe, it makes sense. Trip thought the cocoons were lethal, he had reason to suspect the effect might go world-wide, and he had a distant hope that destroying the Diviner might reverse the process. None of these things were true, but you can understand how he came to the conclusion "Gotta destroy this thing but I can't touch it and have no tools, gotta kick it."

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#68772: Apr 14th 2017 at 3:26:16 PM

He got a starring role on a new show, IIRC, so they had to write him out.

And while it may make sense in-universe, it's unsatisfying from a narrative perspective for a character to die like that. There are so many other ways he could have gone out. The episode featured a clusterf*ck between three separate villains who he could have died fighting - Whitehall, Ward, and Cal.

But no. He dies stupidly from kicking a rock really hard, which doesn't even accomplish anything.

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Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#68773: Apr 14th 2017 at 3:31:54 PM

It's kind of a bold move, though. I mean, as useless as him dying was, there is something to say about dodging the usual clichés.....someone recently described Ao S as the show where clichés go to die. And that is pretty much spot on. You can usually trust that Ao S doesn't do the expected - except when it does to ensure that the unexpected doesn't become the expected.

edited 14th Apr '17 3:48:28 PM by Swanpride

Pseudopartition Screaming Into The Void from The Cretaeceous Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Screaming Into The Void
#68774: Apr 14th 2017 at 3:32:42 PM

...

I thought we were talking about Quicksilver for some reason. My bad.

Just ignore everything I say folks, I'm really not very credible.

edited 14th Apr '17 3:32:57 PM by Pseudopartition

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#68775: Apr 14th 2017 at 4:11:15 PM

Quicksilver's death, pointless as it was, managed to be less stupid than what they did to Tripp.


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