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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Pseudopartition Screaming Into The Void from The Cretaeceous Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Screaming Into The Void
#68727: Apr 13th 2017 at 12:44:23 PM

Co-directed by Peter Ramsey? Cool, I was wondering what he was doing after Rise of the Guardians. And Lord and Miller are always funny.

KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#68728: Apr 13th 2017 at 1:01:59 PM

I think Ross doesn't care because they had a known terrorist/assassin locked up in their facility who escaped and went on a rampage. His trail is still hot so they need to keep the pressure. "He may not be guilty of the original bombing" doesn't change any of that. No rational authority figure would call off the manhunt. I believe it was mentioned early on that even if Bucky was responsible, someone would have to be behind him.

Secretly sympathetic or not, Bucky is dangerous to everyone and IS guilty of other things. Ross is not a detective uncovering a conspiracy, nor is he a judge to determine guilt. The only way to clear up the bombing will be with Bucky in their custody.

It's the Fugitive quote "I didn't kill my wife." "I don't care."

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#68729: Apr 13th 2017 at 1:16:33 PM

It's the Fugitive quote "I didn't kill my wife." "I don't care."
Oh, exactly. But here's the thing: we are supposed to see Dr. Kimble as in the right and Tommy Lee Jones as in the wrong.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#68730: Apr 13th 2017 at 1:50:47 PM

Ross certainly is in the wrong...wanting to secure Bucky again is one thing. Ignoring a possible threat which is even bigger than Bucky is another thing.

KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#68731: Apr 13th 2017 at 2:19:17 PM

No, it's not an either/or thing, one is right and the other is wrong. It was that Jones is a By-the-Book Cop doing his job, he's not an Obstructive Bureaucrat or Designated Antagonist just because he is chasing the hero. Even when he knew the truth, he still had to arrest Kimble. There wasn't somehow a better way to handle the situation.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#68732: Apr 13th 2017 at 2:22:36 PM

[up] Nothing prevents Ross from investigating the dangerous super-soldier claim and sending the whole Avengers team to Siberia, while still wanting to put Bucky at a secure place.

KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#68733: Apr 13th 2017 at 3:03:50 PM

And that's a mistake that could be made regardless of who's in charge, what should we focus on and how do we approach the situation. Tony refused Steve's claims up front too, and even later didn't know anything other than a picture confirming someone else was in play. And realistically, even if Ross was supportive the only difference would be that Tony would get permission to investigate further.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#68734: Apr 13th 2017 at 4:37:14 PM

And that's a mistake that could be made regardless of who's in charge
Uh, no, it's pretty clear that Ross hates the Avengers at this point.

KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#68735: Apr 13th 2017 at 7:17:29 PM

That's not the argument whatsoever. I already said that Tony dismissed the claims himself. And half the time the Avengers don't even like each other.

Your argument is that Ross is proof the Accords are flawed in the way Steve feared, bureaucracy tying their hands and committee approved operations only. I'm saying neither of those things are evident in the movie. In essence, Steve rebels before he is asked to burn down a church, and he never signed the Accords so he was never officially denied a mission. Ross is a Bad Boss, sure, but Steve was too busy fighting the system to let it pass or fail on its own merits.

Pseudopartition Screaming Into The Void from The Cretaeceous Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#68737: Apr 13th 2017 at 7:36:01 PM

Till this day, the fact that Ross loses his moustache whenever he turns into Red Hulk still bugs me.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#68739: Apr 13th 2017 at 10:15:41 PM

If you could see gamma rays you could see it, ten times the size and glowing with an unearthly, almost divine radiance.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#68740: Apr 13th 2017 at 11:03:36 PM

The problem is that all the arguments you might have against the Avengers operating freely in the world, you have tenfold with Ross in charge because, guess what, he can still send them wherever he wants (or keep them away), he can still decide what is a threat and what isn't, he can even imprison people with no due process and on top of all this, he is not even in the field but makes his judgement from afar. Oh, and he is an US general.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#68741: Apr 13th 2017 at 11:10:34 PM

[up]He also does not run the UN and is not irreplaceable.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#68742: Apr 13th 2017 at 11:19:47 PM

Not really. His actions were based on, again, control and not being in control of where he goes and what he does.

Judging by Steve's actions in Civil War, maybe that's a good thing.

Except with Tony brings him actual physical evidence that Bucky didn't bomb the UN, Ross doesn't care.

Because Ross' priority is capturing the two guys he knows are wanted fugitives not chasing ghosts.

And if he didn't sell it, but used it himself?

Then my other scenarios still apply.

And what if he still escaped?

He at least still would not have been in a city. Worst case scenario, there'd be a man hunt for him, hopefully by people who rely on accurate intel not the team of cowboys and cowgirls on a power trip.

This is all predicated on the Avengers being able to follow him, but Crossbones was fully prepared to split up his group, which meant that they could have followed the wrong person and lost the weapon.

Well, maybe if they'd alerted the authorities, they could have two parties follow both groups.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#68743: Apr 14th 2017 at 12:13:51 AM

[up] Hindsight is 20/20. There is no decision in Civil War which I wouldn't have done except more or less everything Ross does and every time someone puts revenge above the law.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#68744: Apr 14th 2017 at 1:39:08 AM

Hindsight is 20/20.

At the risk of repeating an overused meme, "cool motive. still illegal"

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#68745: Apr 14th 2017 at 8:13:29 AM

Yeah. Whatever flaws Ross may have, it's kinda hard not to think he wasn't in the wrong. He wasn't not the best man for the job, but his top priority is capturing the two fugitives.

If Steve wasn't so hellbent on raw raw fighting the power, maybe he could have helped as part of the solution.

I blame Tony Stark.tongue

One Strip! One Strip!
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#68746: Apr 14th 2017 at 8:48:42 AM

The whole point of Civil War is that both sides are given a fair shake. Ultimately the side you end up on is probably the side you were already on to begin with— law and order, or freedom. Our society requires both, but it's a wide spectrum.

Cap isn't about disregarding all authority, but he puts his conscience above the law. He can afford to, because his natural impulses are genuinely selfless, unlike Tony, unlike most people. So when Cap disobeys orders, it's usually worked out in the end— it even works out here, right up until Zemo shows up and triggers Bucky's Winter Soldier programming.

Cap strains everyone's trust by going out and rescuing Bucky, but intervening during the first attempt to bring Bucky in himself could well have saved some lives, possibly including Bucky himself. Any way to know that for sure? No, not really.

Cap's problem isn't that all authority is inherently corrupt, but rather that the society we live in expects people to put their trust in a government that doesn't trust its people, to put accountability to a higher power above personal responsibility for one's actions. The problem with that is what while the law is important, it's an imperfect mechanism at best. You want people to obey the laws, but not blindly. Some personal judgment is always going to be required, and circumstances do need to be taken into account. The law isn't an end unto itself, to be executed mindlessly as written. It's there to protect people, and so just because something is illegal doesn't mean it's wrong. Laws can, and should, change.

Cap's always going to follow his conscience first. If he lives in a world where that conscience is inconvenient and outdated, it's worth considering the choices that have created that world, and whether or not that's really the world we want to live in.

edited 14th Apr '17 12:27:17 PM by Unsung

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#68747: Apr 14th 2017 at 10:15:29 AM

Ross is a jackass but I don't think any of the political decisions he makes in Civil War are necessarily wrong.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#68748: Apr 14th 2017 at 10:20:01 AM

And his "got it alone" strategy, is what lets Zemo win in the end. Also in regards to Lagos, the mistake was going in alone in the first place. So all of the arguments about him not being able to do anything differently, fall flat imo because not telling anyone was the screwup to begin with.

"Well he couldn't have done anything differently" oh he most certainly could have if he hadn't have gone "to heck with telling the local authorities, or the Nigerian government. Lets just do it ourselves and ENSURE that if we make a mistake, things are going to go bad." Heck at the very least, the police or army could have evacuated the area or something so that there weren't thousands on innocent people caught in the crossfire.

Or they could have prevented it from getting to the position that it got to in the end (and no, I don't buy for a second that the Avengers were the only people who could take down freaking Crossbones. This isn't Thanos that we're talking about, it's a mercenary with some tech, nothing more). Or any number of other options. Cap's entire strategy, was a terrible one in it's conception frankly.

And Cap admits to Wanda that he should have noticed the suicide vest, but got too psyched out by hearing Bucky's name to do so. So when the man himself admits that he messed up royally, he messed up royally.

See the thing is, when the catalyst for the conflict, and the villain's victory, both happen because Cap "did it his way" and others went along with it, it's hard NOT to see him as being the one in the wrong. His critics were right, he WAS too emotionally compromised, and the proof is in the pudding.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#68749: Apr 14th 2017 at 10:20:04 AM

[up][up]Ross's decisions might be correct, or at least not at fault from a legal standpoint, but I don't think they're right, and I don't think they were the only decisions someone in his position could have made.

[up]Cap made mistakes, but I don't think his mistakes are such that you throw the pudding out with the bathwater, to coin a phrase. The law as written ties their hands in the event of crises just such as these, and then potentially nobody's boots-on-the-ground to act. Lagos was bad, but it could have easily been worse, if, for example, Crossbones had gotten away with that biological weapon to do whatever he was going to do with it. We'll never know, now.

Saying the Avengers aren't answerable to anyone is one thing. There probably should be someone they report to. Saying that they must register themselves as what amounts to officers of an international peacekeeping organization and submit to whatever chain of command that entails swings the pendulum in completely the opposite direction, and the point that's being missed on both sides is that there are a number of places in between. You shouldn't sign the first draft of any contract. There should be some back-and-forth on something this important. And in the interim, there should be a discussion, someone who is granted the authority to involve the Avengers and utilize them with discretion and concern for the sovereign states involved. Someone to take on the role that was lost when SHIELD imploded, basically.

edited 14th Apr '17 12:02:03 PM by Unsung

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#68750: Apr 14th 2017 at 12:00:10 PM

The second season of Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. implies that they were still doing that, actually. SHIELD fed the Avengers targets, and the Avengers wiped out the biggest HYDRA bases. It's just that after Age of Ultron, HYDRA was too small-fry for the Avengers to deal with, so the two groups went their separate ways.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.

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