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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
I think Ross doesn't care because they had a known terrorist/assassin locked up in their facility who escaped and went on a rampage. His trail is still hot so they need to keep the pressure. "He may not be guilty of the original bombing" doesn't change any of that. No rational authority figure would call off the manhunt. I believe it was mentioned early on that even if Bucky was responsible, someone would have to be behind him.
Secretly sympathetic or not, Bucky is dangerous to everyone and IS guilty of other things. Ross is not a detective uncovering a conspiracy, nor is he a judge to determine guilt. The only way to clear up the bombing will be with Bucky in their custody.
It's the Fugitive quote "I didn't kill my wife." "I don't care."
No, it's not an either/or thing, one is right and the other is wrong. It was that Jones is a By-the-Book Cop doing his job, he's not an Obstructive Bureaucrat or Designated Antagonist just because he is chasing the hero. Even when he knew the truth, he still had to arrest Kimble. There wasn't somehow a better way to handle the situation.
And that's a mistake that could be made regardless of who's in charge, what should we focus on and how do we approach the situation. Tony refused Steve's claims up front too, and even later didn't know anything other than a picture confirming someone else was in play. And realistically, even if Ross was supportive the only difference would be that Tony would get permission to investigate further.
That's not the argument whatsoever. I already said that Tony dismissed the claims himself. And half the time the Avengers don't even like each other.
Your argument is that Ross is proof the Accords are flawed in the way Steve feared, bureaucracy tying their hands and committee approved operations only. I'm saying neither of those things are evident in the movie. In essence, Steve rebels before he is asked to burn down a church, and he never signed the Accords so he was never officially denied a mission. Ross is a Bad Boss, sure, but Steve was too busy fighting the system to let it pass or fail on its own merits.
The problem is that all the arguments you might have against the Avengers operating freely in the world, you have tenfold with Ross in charge because, guess what, he can still send them wherever he wants (or keep them away), he can still decide what is a threat and what isn't, he can even imprison people with no due process and on top of all this, he is not even in the field but makes his judgement from afar. Oh, and he is an US general.
Judging by Steve's actions in Civil War, maybe that's a good thing.
Because Ross' priority is capturing the two guys he knows are wanted fugitives not chasing ghosts.
Then my other scenarios still apply.
He at least still would not have been in a city. Worst case scenario, there'd be a man hunt for him, hopefully by people who rely on accurate intel not the team of cowboys and cowgirls on a power trip.
Well, maybe if they'd alerted the authorities, they could have two parties follow both groups.
Yeah. Whatever flaws Ross may have, it's kinda hard not to think he wasn't in the wrong. He wasn't not the best man for the job, but his top priority is capturing the two fugitives.
If Steve wasn't so hellbent on raw raw fighting the power, maybe he could have helped as part of the solution.
I blame Tony Stark.
The whole point of Civil War is that both sides are given a fair shake. Ultimately the side you end up on is probably the side you were already on to begin with— law and order, or freedom. Our society requires both, but it's a wide spectrum.
Cap isn't about disregarding all authority, but he puts his conscience above the law. He can afford to, because his natural impulses are genuinely selfless, unlike Tony, unlike most people. So when Cap disobeys orders, it's usually worked out in the end— it even works out here, right up until Zemo shows up and triggers Bucky's Winter Soldier programming.
Cap strains everyone's trust by going out and rescuing Bucky, but intervening during the first attempt to bring Bucky in himself could well have saved some lives, possibly including Bucky himself. Any way to know that for sure? No, not really.
Cap's problem isn't that all authority is inherently corrupt, but rather that the society we live in expects people to put their trust in a government that doesn't trust its people, to put accountability to a higher power above personal responsibility for one's actions. The problem with that is what while the law is important, it's an imperfect mechanism at best. You want people to obey the laws, but not blindly. Some personal judgment is always going to be required, and circumstances do need to be taken into account. The law isn't an end unto itself, to be executed mindlessly as written. It's there to protect people, and so just because something is illegal doesn't mean it's wrong. Laws can, and should, change.
Cap's always going to follow his conscience first. If he lives in a world where that conscience is inconvenient and outdated, it's worth considering the choices that have created that world, and whether or not that's really the world we want to live in.
edited 14th Apr '17 12:27:17 PM by Unsung
And his "got it alone" strategy, is what lets Zemo win in the end. Also in regards to Lagos, the mistake was going in alone in the first place. So all of the arguments about him not being able to do anything differently, fall flat imo because not telling anyone was the screwup to begin with.
"Well he couldn't have done anything differently" oh he most certainly could have if he hadn't have gone "to heck with telling the local authorities, or the Nigerian government. Lets just do it ourselves and ENSURE that if we make a mistake, things are going to go bad." Heck at the very least, the police or army could have evacuated the area or something so that there weren't thousands on innocent people caught in the crossfire.
Or they could have prevented it from getting to the position that it got to in the end (and no, I don't buy for a second that the Avengers were the only people who could take down freaking Crossbones. This isn't Thanos that we're talking about, it's a mercenary with some tech, nothing more). Or any number of other options. Cap's entire strategy, was a terrible one in it's conception frankly.
And Cap admits to Wanda that he should have noticed the suicide vest, but got too psyched out by hearing Bucky's name to do so. So when the man himself admits that he messed up royally, he messed up royally.
See the thing is, when the catalyst for the conflict, and the villain's victory, both happen because Cap "did it his way" and others went along with it, it's hard NOT to see him as being the one in the wrong. His critics were right, he WAS too emotionally compromised, and the proof is in the pudding.
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Ross's decisions might be correct, or at least not at fault from a legal standpoint, but I don't think they're right, and I don't think they were the only decisions someone in his position could have made.
Cap made mistakes, but I don't think his mistakes are such that you throw the pudding out with the bathwater, to coin a phrase. The law as written ties their hands in the event of crises just such as these, and then potentially nobody's boots-on-the-ground to act. Lagos was bad, but it could have easily been worse, if, for example, Crossbones had gotten away with that biological weapon to do whatever he was going to do with it. We'll never know, now.
Saying the Avengers aren't answerable to anyone is one thing. There probably should be someone they report to. Saying that they must register themselves as what amounts to officers of an international peacekeeping organization and submit to whatever chain of command that entails swings the pendulum in completely the opposite direction, and the point that's being missed on both sides is that there are a number of places in between. You shouldn't sign the first draft of any contract. There should be some back-and-forth on something this important. And in the interim, there should be a discussion, someone who is granted the authority to involve the Avengers and utilize them with discretion and concern for the sovereign states involved. Someone to take on the role that was lost when SHIELD imploded, basically.
edited 14th Apr '17 12:02:03 PM by Unsung
The second season of Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. implies that they were still doing that, actually. SHIELD fed the Avengers targets, and the Avengers wiped out the biggest HYDRA bases. It's just that after Age of Ultron, HYDRA was too small-fry for the Avengers to deal with, so the two groups went their separate ways.
Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.

Oh hey, Shameik Moore is gonna be Miles Morales
in the animated Miles Spider-man movie.