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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#68676: Apr 13th 2017 at 7:18:36 AM

Yes. Putting people on trial is infinitely preferable to keeping them in a secret underwater prison for the rest of their lives.

Again, this assumes they wouldn't have gotten a trial and that they weren't being kept in that prison while that was being sorted out.

But Tony did have evidence — remember, by the time he returned back to Ross, he had evidence that the doctor had been killed and replaced by Zemo and that it hadn't been Bucky who had detonated the explosive. And yet Ross didn't care about that all — and, in fact, threatened to imprison Tony, even though Tony had signed and been in compliance with the Accords. Which made Cap's reasoning (that the Accords are enforced by "people with agendas") completely true.

Priorities. Steve and Barnes were still wanted fugitives. Tony's job was to bring them in. After that, then they could investigate and see if there was any truth to Steve's claims and if he wasn't just lying to excuse his crimes

It's not red tape, it's control. By signing the Accords, they are giving up their control, both of what they do and where they go. And yes, if they refuse to comply by an order, they will get court martialed. Hell, again, Ross threatened to imprison Tony for failing to capture Cap and the others and Tony had been in full compliance with the Accords.

Ross is not the UN. He does not own the UN. There are limits to what he can and can not make the Avengers do.

On the whole "the Avengers go into different countries" matter....yes, they do, but we have to see that in context. They don't go into different countries to replace the local government, they do it to prevent threats to the whole world.

Tell me something, do you think the people who died in Lagos because of Steve and Wanda's blunders care why the Avengers were there? Do you think the people who died in Sokovia or lost their homes care that the Avengers were trying to save the world?

Excuse me that I don't care one bit how, let's say, Saudi Arabia would feel about the Avengers turning up on their soil if the alternative is an Alien invasion spreading over the whole world, or a fake meteor destroying the world, or a terrorist stealing a chemical weapon which can be set off anywhere in the world.

The Avengers weren't dealing with an alien invasion or meteor crash. They were dealing with two bit thugs with guns that could have been handled by any competent military or police force. Dealing with alien invasions is one thing, but anything below that is bringing cannons to kill flies.

Just because you don't care doesn't mean the citizens of the countries being hurt by the Avengers' actions should just keep their mouths shut about it. You're looking at this from the perspective of the Avengers and not the average citizen of the MCU.

What the Accords SHOULD be about is setting up general guidelines under which the Avengers are allowed to act (ie they can intervene when the world is threatened but they can't intervene in local politics), which rules they have to follow (keeping the collateral damage as low as possible, respecting certain laws) and what happens when they break those rules (what body would look into their actions, which court would conduct the trial aso).

And one of those guidelines is going to be "don't go into another country without permission to deal with a threat that can be dealt with by the local authorities".

What is actually IS about is taking the decision when, where and how to act away from the avengers, putting it into the hand of either an appointed guy who can decide over them however he wants with no clear guidelines whatsoever or into a committee which is largely unelected and is unlikely to agree on anything completely.

If Sokovia and Nigeria are any indication, maybe where and when they should be deployed is a decision best left out of the Avengers' hands.

[up]Tony is at least trying to fix his mistakes while Steve seems to just be doing the exact same thing and hope to get different results.

edited 13th Apr '17 7:19:38 AM by windleopard

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#68677: Apr 13th 2017 at 7:26:31 AM

Again, this assumes they wouldn't have gotten a trial and that they weren't being kept in that prison while that was being sorted out.
Where exactly did they say anything about giving them a trial? Where were their legal representatives? They didn't have any. They weren't told their rights when they were arrested. They were kept in an underwater gulag. There is nothing at all to say that they were going to get any trail at all. (See: Guatanamo Bay.)

Priorities. Steve and Barnes were still wanted fugitives. Tony's job was to bring them in. After that, then they could investigate and see if there was any truth to Steve's claims and if he wasn't just lying to excuse his crimes
Except Steve already told Tony that there were potentially five super soldiers that Zemo was going to let loose — so if Tony has evidence that he is right, the priority becomes that, not capturing Cap and Bucky. That is why Cap is right — because Ross is much more interested in capturing them than he is in actually saving lives.

Ross is not the UN. He does not own the UN. There are limits to what he can and can not make the Avengers do.
It's very clear that Ross is in charge of the Sokovia Accords. Ross outright tells Tony what to do — and then says he's lucky not to be imprisoned as well. What part of all of that doesn't make it sound like Ross isn't in charge? He is.

Tell me something, do you think the people who died in Lagos because of Steve and Wanda's blunders care why the Avengers were there? Do you think the people who died in Sokovia or lost their homes care that the Avengers were trying to save the world?
If the world ends, however, nobody will be alive to criticize the Avengers. Whoops. Also, I'm pretty sure that the people of Lagos appreciate the Avengers stopping a chemical attack on their country.

They were dealing with two bit thugs with guns that could have been handled by any competent military or police force.
No they weren't: they were dealing with Crossbones, who was ex-Hydra. It's clear that the Avengers have been going after Hydra since the end of Winter Soldier and everybody was completely fine with that as long as there was no collateral damage. This time, however, there happened to be collateral damage, hence the Accords.

edited 13th Apr '17 7:27:00 AM by alliterator

Pseudopartition Screaming Into The Void from The Cretaeceous Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Screaming Into The Void
#68678: Apr 13th 2017 at 7:47:38 AM

Tony is at least trying to fix his mistakes while Steve seems to just be doing the exact same thing and hope to get different results.

Well, except for the whole "recruiting teenagers to fight for him" thing. Which, depending on Wanda's age, it's also what Steve is doing...

Also, I'm pretty sure that the people of Lagos appreciate the Avengers stopping a chemical attack on their country.
It's been awhile since I've seen the movie, but don't people still die there because Cap gets distracted at a critical moment? That's still not okay, and it really bothers me that he never even acknowledges it.

ExplosiveLion Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
#68679: Apr 13th 2017 at 8:27:45 AM

[up]

Yeah, well, shit happens. That's the whole point of his talk with Wanda after the whole deal. Now, there isn't to say that they shouldn't be responsible for that, because they should. Yet. as a lot of people have already said, the Accords weren'r about accountability, but about control.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#68680: Apr 13th 2017 at 8:31:02 AM

That makes Tony no worse than Zordon.

Well, a little worse. He hasn't given Spider-Man a giant robot yet. Maybe a Leopardon.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Cross (Don’t ask)
#68681: Apr 13th 2017 at 8:37:53 AM

While the recruitment was sketchy, the bigger issue it that Tony didn't seem to account on Peter continued involvement when it escalated. "Keep your distance and web them up" was fine, but it looks like Tony hadn't thought about if Peter actually needed to fight.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#68682: Apr 13th 2017 at 9:02:19 AM

It's been awhile since I've seen the movie, but don't people still die there because Cap gets distracted at a critical moment?
No, people died because Crossbones had a suicide vest on and activated it. If, say, a NATO team had attacked him instead of the Avengers, he still would have killed people (although they would have been the people on the ground, instead of those in the building).

edited 13th Apr '17 9:02:27 AM by alliterator

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#68683: Apr 13th 2017 at 9:15:44 AM

A NATO team wouldn't have gotten distracted by Bucky's name. They also would not have engaged him in a crowded city.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#68684: Apr 13th 2017 at 9:20:12 AM

So NATO would have let him get away with the chemical weapons?

Also, the team that tries to capture Bucky did so in a crowded building in a crowded city.

edited 13th Apr '17 9:23:06 AM by alliterator

Pseudopartition Screaming Into The Void from The Cretaeceous Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Screaming Into The Void
#68685: Apr 13th 2017 at 9:23:06 AM

No one is saying that.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#68686: Apr 13th 2017 at 9:24:38 AM

Crossbones had invaded a CDC building to get chemical weapons. It was either stop him then and there or let him get away with the weapon. Cap chose to try and stop him there, but Crossbones ended up running away into a crowded marketplace. It was an unfortunate situation, but there wasn't anything Cap could have done to change it.

Cap was distracted by Bucky's name, yes, but even if he hadn't been, what, how exactly was he going to stop Crossbone's bomb vest?

edited 13th Apr '17 9:25:21 AM by alliterator

KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#68687: Apr 13th 2017 at 9:40:05 AM

Steve's actions are based entirely on being afraid of being told no. If Steve asked for permission at any point and was told no, THEN his fears are validated. When he gets in trouble after chasing Bucky his actions were overtly and deliberately obstructive with local law enforcement, even pre-Accords I can see that not being appreciated. Ross is being tough, but there is no point putting a pushover in charge of the Avengers, and he gives Tony a hard time because members of his team are complicating things. Even if Ross was a little nicer and reasonable the overall plot would be the same, the wanted criminal Bucky escapes with Steve and the remaining Avengers are tasked to track them down. Tony even agrees that is what they need to do. Nothing Steve is worried about actually happens.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#68688: Apr 13th 2017 at 9:45:23 AM

"at the beginning of the movie, he admits that Crossbones was able to psych him out just by BRINGING UP BUCKY'S NAME!!"

Cap: it mention is name and lose control

Batman: I know your pain.

", I kind of think that a big reason why the Russo's completely and utterly ignore her actions in AOU entirely, is because acknowledging them would ALSO really hurt Cap's argument"

pretty much, two super fights in city out of nowhere, wreck things and them leave without even saying a word, while the person who send Hulk into that state(Wanda) was helping Ultron pretty much get away with that, it really hurt Cap anti reg position.

"You're looking at this from the perspective of the Avengers and not the average citizen of the MCU."

to be fair the whole movie does, is pretty much "the accords are bad because it make the team feel bad" the focus is not them and the acountabilty talk is just there.

"If the world ends, however, nobody will be alive to criticize the Avengers. Whoops. Also, I'm pretty sure that the people of Lagos appreciate the Avengers stopping a chemical attack on their country. "

about sokovia I quote raiden from mortal kombat "you dont get to be thanks for fixing your own mistake" Tony create Ultron and is responsability what it happen(also wanda consider she mess with her head at the start of the film, funny how everyone leave that part out) and 30 people dead because you make a mistake is still a damn mistake.

"what, how exactly was he going to stop Crossbone's bomb vest?"

by stoping him before he got access? is not a difficult thing, you know?

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#68689: Apr 13th 2017 at 9:53:35 AM

Crossbones had invaded a CDC building to get chemical weapons. It was either stop him then and there or let him get away with the weapon. Cap chose to try and stop him there, but Crossbones ended up running away into a crowded marketplace. It was an unfortunate situation, but there wasn't anything Cap could have done to change it.

As was once stated by Tobias Drake, there were ways to avoid this:

They could have set up a sting operation to buy the weapon from him.

Waited until he was outside the city to hit him.

Tailed him back to his point of origin to see who he was working with.

Oh and let's not forget they got his target wrong and staked out a nearby building.

Cap was distracted by Bucky's name, yes, but even if he hadn't been, what, how exactly was he going to stop Crossbone's bomb vest?

By not letting him set it off?

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#68690: Apr 13th 2017 at 9:54:43 AM

Steve's actions are based entirely on being afraid of being told no.
Not really. His actions were based on, again, control and not being in control of where he goes and what he does. Again, Ross could order him to do sometheing he doesn't want to do and if he disobeys, he would be court martialied.

Ross is being tough, but there is no point putting a pushover in charge of the Avengers, and he gives Tony a hard time because members of his team are complicating things.
Except with Tony brings him actual physical evidence that Bucky didn't bomb the UN, Ross doesn't care.

by stoping him before he got access? is not a difficult thing, you know?
I'm sorry, how is he going to stop him from accessing the bomb vest? Crossbones has a button in his hand that explodes the vest. Unless Cap pulls the detonator away from Crossbones before he pushes the button (and not even Cap is that fast), it was going to explode no matter what.

They could have set up a sting operation to buy the weapon from him.
And if he didn't sell it, but used it himself?

Waited until he was outside the city to hit him. Tailed him back to his point of origin to see who he was working with.
And what if he still escaped? This is all predicated on the Avengers being able to follow him, but Crossbones was fully prepared to split up his group, which meant that they could have followed the wrong person and lost the weapon.

By not letting him set it off?
Again: how? Cap doesn't have telekinesis.

edited 13th Apr '17 9:57:01 AM by alliterator

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#68691: Apr 13th 2017 at 9:58:25 AM

Easy. Break his arms and legs. Knock him the fuck out.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#68692: Apr 13th 2017 at 10:00:25 AM

That's what they were trying to do, bomb or no bomb. It was only when they'd almost done it that he blew himself up.

edited 13th Apr '17 10:29:21 AM by Unsung

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#68693: Apr 13th 2017 at 10:01:19 AM

Because Cap got lulled into a conversation about Bucky. Next time just crack the bastard over the head once you take the helmet off.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#68694: Apr 13th 2017 at 10:04:55 AM

Eh, fair enough,

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#68695: Apr 13th 2017 at 10:05:31 AM

  • Cap cracks Crossbones over the head. He falls down, accidentally activating the bomb vest.*

CAP: Oops.

BOOOOOOM.

In any case, it's easy to say "He should have stopped him," but it's the "How" and "How fast can he do that?" that's the real question. Cap himself says that he should have seen the bomb vest before, but he was distracted, but even if he had seen the bomb vest, how could he have stopped it? Broken Crossbones' thumbs? It was very clear that Crossbones wanted to kill Cap by any means.

edited 13th Apr '17 10:06:54 AM by alliterator

KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#68696: Apr 13th 2017 at 10:10:25 AM

It's still fear of something that doesn't happen, whether it be fear of being told no or fear of being court marshaled. The movie also doesn't even really clarify what their exact relationship with the UN is, at the start of the movie they are all private citizens and essentially self-employed mercenaries. If it stated affirmatively that they would be a new public spec-ops team than a court marshal is plausible, but if they are more like an international contracted CIA ops then they would have the private power to refuse a job with no consequence.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#68697: Apr 13th 2017 at 10:17:58 AM

It's still fear of something that doesn't happen, whether it be fear of being told no or fear of being court marshaled.
Except, during the course of the movie, it does happen to Tony. Tony clearly tells Ross about Zemo, but Ross doesn't care.

You could say that Cap acted out of fear, but that doesn't really matter if his fears are justified.

edited 13th Apr '17 10:18:27 AM by alliterator

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#68698: Apr 13th 2017 at 10:22:44 AM

It's been awhile since I've seen the movie, but don't people still die there because Cap gets distracted at a critical moment? That's still not okay, and it really bothers me that he never even acknowledges it.

I think it is acknowledged by proxy at the climax. When Tony discovers Cap lied to him, that's when it becomes clear Cap has an emotional problem with Bucky being in danger that's now proven to have become a major bias. Hence why Cap defers to Tony in the end. The scene with Crossbones foreshadows it.

edited 13th Apr '17 10:23:40 AM by Tuckerscreator

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#68699: Apr 13th 2017 at 10:25:07 AM

[up][up][up][up][up]i didn't know Hydra made head triggered bomb vests now. The bastards!

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#68700: Apr 13th 2017 at 10:27:21 AM

No, they couldn't have set up a sting elsewhere, because they were caught on the wrong foot. Remember, they were stalking the wrong target and when they realized what was actually going on, there wasn't much time for complicated plans.

Also, Cap blaming himself is as much on the point as Wanda blaming herself. Cap confronted a man with a suicide vest on a crowded marketplace. Even if he hadn't been distracted, it is highly unlikely that he would have been able to prevent the explosion from happening. And Wanda did what she could do. People died, but most likely less people compared to what would have happened if the bomb had gone off on the ground.

The whole point in all this is that even if you do everything right, there is no guarantee that nobody will die. That is always the goal, but not always the end result. Remember Sokovia. They rescued everyone on the island. They weren't able to rescue everyone on the ground, too.

edited 13th Apr '17 10:29:34 AM by Swanpride


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