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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
edited 13th Apr '17 7:27:00 AM by alliterator
Well, except for the whole "recruiting teenagers to fight for him" thing. Which, depending on Wanda's age, it's also what Steve is doing...
That makes Tony no worse than Zordon.
Well, a little worse. He hasn't given Spider-Man a giant robot yet. Maybe a Leopardon.
Forever liveblogging the Avengersedited 13th Apr '17 9:02:27 AM by alliterator
Crossbones had invaded a CDC building to get chemical weapons. It was either stop him then and there or let him get away with the weapon. Cap chose to try and stop him there, but Crossbones ended up running away into a crowded marketplace. It was an unfortunate situation, but there wasn't anything Cap could have done to change it.
Cap was distracted by Bucky's name, yes, but even if he hadn't been, what, how exactly was he going to stop Crossbone's bomb vest?
edited 13th Apr '17 9:25:21 AM by alliterator
Steve's actions are based entirely on being afraid of being told no. If Steve asked for permission at any point and was told no, THEN his fears are validated. When he gets in trouble after chasing Bucky his actions were overtly and deliberately obstructive with local law enforcement, even pre-Accords I can see that not being appreciated. Ross is being tough, but there is no point putting a pushover in charge of the Avengers, and he gives Tony a hard time because members of his team are complicating things. Even if Ross was a little nicer and reasonable the overall plot would be the same, the wanted criminal Bucky escapes with Steve and the remaining Avengers are tasked to track them down. Tony even agrees that is what they need to do. Nothing Steve is worried about actually happens.
"at the beginning of the movie, he admits that Crossbones was able to psych him out just by BRINGING UP BUCKY'S NAME!!"
Cap: it mention is name and lose control
Batman: I know your pain.
", I kind of think that a big reason why the Russo's completely and utterly ignore her actions in AOU entirely, is because acknowledging them would ALSO really hurt Cap's argument"
pretty much, two super fights in city out of nowhere, wreck things and them leave without even saying a word, while the person who send Hulk into that state(Wanda) was helping Ultron pretty much get away with that, it really hurt Cap anti reg position.
"You're looking at this from the perspective of the Avengers and not the average citizen of the MCU."
to be fair the whole movie does, is pretty much "the accords are bad because it make the team feel bad" the focus is not them and the acountabilty talk is just there.
"If the world ends, however, nobody will be alive to criticize the Avengers. Whoops. Also, I'm pretty sure that the people of Lagos appreciate the Avengers stopping a chemical attack on their country. "
about sokovia I quote raiden from mortal kombat "you dont get to be thanks for fixing your own mistake" Tony create Ultron and is responsability what it happen(also wanda consider she mess with her head at the start of the film, funny how everyone leave that part out) and 30 people dead because you make a mistake is still a damn mistake.
"what, how exactly was he going to stop Crossbone's bomb vest?"
by stoping him before he got access? is not a difficult thing, you know?
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"As was once stated by Tobias Drake, there were ways to avoid this:
They could have set up a sting operation to buy the weapon from him.
Waited until he was outside the city to hit him.
Tailed him back to his point of origin to see who he was working with.
Oh and let's not forget they got his target wrong and staked out a nearby building.
By not letting him set it off?
edited 13th Apr '17 9:57:01 AM by alliterator
- Cap cracks Crossbones over the head. He falls down, accidentally activating the bomb vest.*
CAP: Oops.
BOOOOOOM.
In any case, it's easy to say "He should have stopped him," but it's the "How" and "How fast can he do that?" that's the real question. Cap himself says that he should have seen the bomb vest before, but he was distracted, but even if he had seen the bomb vest, how could he have stopped it? Broken Crossbones' thumbs? It was very clear that Crossbones wanted to kill Cap by any means.
edited 13th Apr '17 10:06:54 AM by alliterator
It's still fear of something that doesn't happen, whether it be fear of being told no or fear of being court marshaled. The movie also doesn't even really clarify what their exact relationship with the UN is, at the start of the movie they are all private citizens and essentially self-employed mercenaries. If it stated affirmatively that they would be a new public spec-ops team than a court marshal is plausible, but if they are more like an international contracted CIA ops then they would have the private power to refuse a job with no consequence.
You could say that Cap acted out of fear, but that doesn't really matter if his fears are justified.
edited 13th Apr '17 10:18:27 AM by alliterator
I think it is acknowledged by proxy at the climax. When Tony discovers Cap lied to him, that's when it becomes clear Cap has an emotional problem with Bucky being in danger that's now proven to have become a major bias. Hence why Cap defers to Tony in the end. The scene with Crossbones foreshadows it.
edited 13th Apr '17 10:23:40 AM by Tuckerscreator
No, they couldn't have set up a sting elsewhere, because they were caught on the wrong foot. Remember, they were stalking the wrong target and when they realized what was actually going on, there wasn't much time for complicated plans.
Also, Cap blaming himself is as much on the point as Wanda blaming herself. Cap confronted a man with a suicide vest on a crowded marketplace. Even if he hadn't been distracted, it is highly unlikely that he would have been able to prevent the explosion from happening. And Wanda did what she could do. People died, but most likely less people compared to what would have happened if the bomb had gone off on the ground.
The whole point in all this is that even if you do everything right, there is no guarantee that nobody will die. That is always the goal, but not always the end result. Remember Sokovia. They rescued everyone on the island. They weren't able to rescue everyone on the ground, too.
edited 13th Apr '17 10:29:34 AM by Swanpride

Again, this assumes they wouldn't have gotten a trial and that they weren't being kept in that prison while that was being sorted out.
Priorities. Steve and Barnes were still wanted fugitives. Tony's job was to bring them in. After that, then they could investigate and see if there was any truth to Steve's claims and if he wasn't just lying to excuse his crimes
Ross is not the UN. He does not own the UN. There are limits to what he can and can not make the Avengers do.
Tell me something, do you think the people who died in Lagos because of Steve and Wanda's blunders care why the Avengers were there? Do you think the people who died in Sokovia or lost their homes care that the Avengers were trying to save the world?
The Avengers weren't dealing with an alien invasion or meteor crash. They were dealing with two bit thugs with guns that could have been handled by any competent military or police force. Dealing with alien invasions is one thing, but anything below that is bringing cannons to kill flies.
Just because you don't care doesn't mean the citizens of the countries being hurt by the Avengers' actions should just keep their mouths shut about it. You're looking at this from the perspective of the Avengers and not the average citizen of the MCU.
And one of those guidelines is going to be "don't go into another country without permission to deal with a threat that can be dealt with by the local authorities".
If Sokovia and Nigeria are any indication, maybe where and when they should be deployed is a decision best left out of the Avengers' hands.
edited 13th Apr '17 7:19:38 AM by windleopard