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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#68626: Apr 12th 2017 at 11:10:41 AM

Are you a child? In the middle of a warzone? Buried under rubble for days? Did your parents just die?

The twins were orphans in a wartorn country, no family, no therapists. Yeah, they're screwed up, but it's not really surprising.

Pseudopartition Screaming Into The Void from The Cretaeceous Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Screaming Into The Void
#68627: Apr 12th 2017 at 11:10:59 AM

One More Wanda is probably at least 300x better than One More Day.

ExplosiveLion Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#68629: Apr 12th 2017 at 11:32:21 AM

Is that your way of saying you're wrong?

My various fanfics.
ExplosiveLion Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
#68630: Apr 12th 2017 at 11:51:02 AM

Are you talking to me? Because if you are, then no, I'm not saying I was wrong.

I agree that Wanda is a messed up individual. My main problem with the "the missile had Stark's name on it = hate his guts" excuse is that it's illogical and the laziest excuse ever. Not only is she a hypocrite because she causes a lot of death by proxy via Hulk, but it comes off as illogical because she blamed a weapon's manufacturer and not the ones, you know, actually firing the thing. And, what's even worse, the movie treats her point of view as actually justified.

higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#68631: Apr 12th 2017 at 11:52:37 AM

So Josh Brolin is now both Thanos and Cable.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#68632: Apr 12th 2017 at 11:57:59 AM

I don't think it treats her as justified, just understandable. It's intended to be irrational, and obviously so— but people don't always operate on logic. She's traumatized, and she's been in Hydra custody for who knows how long. They might have fed her any number of lies, to build upon her own perception of Stark as the evil who deliberately ruined her life and destroyed her country.

Of course it's not that simple— but it's meant to be a childish viewpoint, one she can be helped to grow out of.

Though as with a lot of the twins' behaviour, it would help if they looked younger. From the writing and dialogue, I get the impression they're meant to be in their teens. But both of them look, and are, in their mid-twenties.

You could get away with that back in Buffy times. Now? They probably should've been cast younger.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#68633: Apr 12th 2017 at 12:00:05 PM

I actually thought that the story of two children staring at a stark bomb was very creative.

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#68634: Apr 12th 2017 at 12:04:03 PM

I think it probably rings true for people who've lived or grown up in a warzone. I liked that AOU was willing to go there, as part of showing how good intentions don't necessarily count for much when these are the consequences.

I do still wish they'd show more of consequences Wanda herself faced for her part in setting off the Hulk in Johannesburg, though.

edited 12th Apr '17 12:16:21 PM by Unsung

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#68635: Apr 12th 2017 at 12:10:08 PM

[up] They at least could have clarified if it was intentional...I still think that she didn't know that he wouldn't break down, like all her other victims, but go on a rampage. A simple scene of her feeling bad about it would have gone a long way.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#68636: Apr 12th 2017 at 12:14:54 PM

[up]no even a little, is really dumb to think she didnt know considering that was Ultron plan and "feeling bad" will just amount to the same think stark does: he feel bad for thing and that equals redemption.

For me what it really tick me about it was how Banner grab Wanda and said "cmon, mess with my mind and see how I feel" I mean....damn is BANNER we are tacking about.

but in the end the point wasnt that wanda was inocent, is just that what she did in AOU would wreck the pro-anti reg narrative, when Hulk and Iron man fight in a city full of people there is very little Cap cant said against the registration, it harm the narrative and therefore it is forgotten.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#68637: Apr 12th 2017 at 12:48:24 PM

There was never an anti-reg narrative, the only thing keeping Steve from signing was the business with Bucky. No amount of discussion we have will change that fact.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#68638: Apr 12th 2017 at 12:53:21 PM

Funny casting considering both Deadpool and Thanos want to bone Death.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#68639: Apr 12th 2017 at 12:53:34 PM

There was never an anti-reg narrative, the only thing keeping Steve from signing was the business with Bucky.
Uh, what? That's not true at all. Hell, Steve was willing to sign it when they had Bucky in custody so that Bucky didn't get the death penalty, but he stopped when he heard Tony had Wanda under house arrest. He was totally against the Sokovia Accords.

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#68640: Apr 12th 2017 at 1:20:06 PM

[up][up][up] Yeah, that's just not true, as [up] said.

I mean, you do realize that Steve raises his initial objections before Bucky even becomes involved in the plot, right?

Oh God! Natural light!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#68641: Apr 12th 2017 at 1:22:32 PM

My point is there's no big anti-reg narrative and the bulk of the film isn't carried by that, unlike what some people like to think. That I got a detail or two wrong is a mistake on my part, but a minor one.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#68642: Apr 12th 2017 at 1:23:53 PM

My point is there's no big anti-reg narrative and the bulk of the film isn't carried by that, unlike what some people like to think.
True, the bulk of the film is carried by Cap's insistence on finding and saving Bucky (and then stopping the rest of the super soldiers), but the Sokovia Accords/Anti-Sokovia Accords element is still a big part.

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#68643: Apr 12th 2017 at 1:34:41 PM

"If we sign this, we surrender our right to choose."

My various fanfics.
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#68644: Apr 12th 2017 at 1:49:23 PM

The directors mentioned once that they chose a cut of the film that had the test audiences evenly split between siding with Tony or with Cap. I wonder if that came with the consequence of Tony receiving much more screentime and the Anti-Reg narrative being downplayed by comparison.

The main objections the Anti-Regs raise is that approval for an urgent mission might take too long and that they might get left out of a mission they're better qualified for. The former isn't that strong an argument, as we see not only Ross quickly approve Tony for hunting down Cap at the airport, but also Tony offering to retroactively approve Cap's vigilante attempt to get to Bucky first. The latter argument is stronger because we see Cap get held back from reaching Bucky when he's better qualified than a spec ops team to both battle him and to try to negotiate with him.

But because of the fairly small scope of the story, it leaves out what would be another issue for the Anti-Regs to raise: what if they get approved for a mission they DON'T want to go on? What if someone like Ross were to order them to missions with imperialist motives, or to fight on the wrong side of a conflict? If the Civil War narrative continues in the films, then that's a matter that needs exploring.

edited 12th Apr '17 1:53:09 PM by Tuckerscreator

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#68645: Apr 12th 2017 at 1:54:45 PM

But because of the fairly small scope of the story, it leaves out what would be another issue for the Anti-Regs to raise: what if they get approved for a mission they DON'T want to go on? What if someone like Ross were to order them to missions with imperialist motives, or to fight on the wrong side of a conflict? If the Civil War narrative continues in the films, then that's a matter that needs exploring.
They actually did say something like that.
Rhodey: This is the United Nations we're talking about. It's not the World Security Council, it's not SHIELD, it's not HYDRA.
Steve: No, but it's run by people with agendas and agendas change.
Tony: That's good. That's why I'm here. When I realized what my weapons were capable of in the wrong hands, I shut it down and stop manufacturing them.
Steve: Tony. You chose to do that. If we sign these, we surrender our right to choose. What if this panel sends us somewhere we don't think we should go? What if it's somewhere we need to go, and they don't let us? We may not be perfect, but the safest hands are still our own.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#68646: Apr 12th 2017 at 1:56:40 PM

The latter argument is stronger because we see Cap get held back from reaching Bucky when he's better qualified than a spec ops team to both battle him and to try to negotiate with him.

...because he didn't sign the Accords and therefore was not legally authorized to be on the mission.

You could be the most qualified person in the world to design the next iPhone but if you tell Apple to go f*ck themselves when they approach you with a job offer, you don't get to then turn around and whine that they didn't consult your ideas.

They didn't "hold him back". He was not an employee, so he wasn't given the assignment.

edited 12th Apr '17 1:57:59 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#68647: Apr 12th 2017 at 1:56:52 PM

Then I guess you refuse and get court martialled? Or whatever would happen to a member of the armed forces in a similar situation

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#68648: Apr 12th 2017 at 2:10:53 PM

[up][up][up]

There was no indication that the Sokovia Accords contained any provision for requiring the Avengers to intervene in a given crisis - when the matter was raised, no one present (except maybe Stark) had yet read the Accords. If there was such a clause, that would be an obvious reason to oppose the Accords, or at least to oppose that clause and refuse to sign unless it was removed.

Requiring the Avengers to get permission before going to other nations and getting in fights - which is what the Accords did - is very, very different from having the authorization to send them on missions they don't agree with. The former is a reasonable restraint; the latter would make them the UNSC's personal strike force.

edited 12th Apr '17 2:12:23 PM by Galadriel

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#68649: Apr 12th 2017 at 2:29:43 PM

because he didn't sign the Accords and therefore was not legally authorized to be on the mission.

I was under the impression that Cap was technically under the jurisdiction of the Accords and not yet in rebellion, by proxy of the AvengersTM having signed, but my memory might be faulty.

Even if Cap wasn't technically denied, they still could've handled the mission to arrest Bucky much better by sending someone just as qualified. War Machine should've been there from the start.

There was no indication that the Sokovia Accords contained any provision for requiring the Avengers to intervene in a given crisis - when the matter was raised, no one present (except maybe Stark) had yet read the Accords. If there was such a clause, that would be an obvious reason to oppose the Accords, or at least to oppose that clause and refuse to sign unless it was removed.

Even without it, it could still be maneuvered to become such if enforced intervention wasn't explicitly outlawed in the Accords. Ross is a guy who once tried to create an army out of the Hulk's blood. Surely he'd find any loophole he could to turn the Avengers into his tools, whether if by using his approval for missions they want to go on as bargaining chips. "Sure, I'll approve your mission to 'vaguely East European sounding country' if you'll ask to go on my mission to 'vaguely Middle Eastern sounding country'."

edited 12th Apr '17 9:20:46 PM by Tuckerscreator

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#68650: Apr 12th 2017 at 2:34:14 PM

No, anyone who refused to sign was considered to not be a part of the team. That's why Black Widow was receiving mission briefings and Cap had to get stolen intel from Sharon Carter. He was told to stay out of it, but it was by Natasha as a friend, not by anyone in an official capacity refusing a formal request.

I do agree that the mission should have been a War Machine smash-and-grab from the start. Cap and Bucky together, under the best possible circumstances, were just barely able to take Iron Man down. Bucky would have been f*cked if Rhodey kicked in his door and just grabbed him.

edited 12th Apr '17 2:35:56 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.

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