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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#68601: Apr 12th 2017 at 5:02:12 AM

[up][up]And giving birth to a horse as the final gag. "Here We Go Again!."

[up]Or they could, ya know, go after the people actually waging war in their country and who were behind the bombing that killed their parents. Which is only part of the reason I found the handling of Wanda and Pietro's plotline to be kind of stupid.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#68602: Apr 12th 2017 at 6:36:53 AM

Nobody said HYDRA in The Winter Soldier or Ronan were weak because they failed, because both came off as legitimately powerful.
I know, which is why it's sillier that the apparent reason Ultron is "weak" is because he failed. That's my point.

Good writing makes taking down a villain feel like a feat, not an inevitability.
In the movie, it does feel like a feat when they defeat Ultron. It takes a lot to take him down.

Not good logic to use for an Avengers film. By that logic one could say "well of course Strucker looked weak in AUO, he's a Captain America villain". Presentation matters, and if a character doesn't work well in a swapped environment then they should be replaced.
You seemed to have missed my entire point. I wasn't saying that he was Tony's villain swapped into the Avenger's — that's not even true — I was saying that he was a villain made by and for Tony Stark. He has all of Tony's strengths, but also all of Tony's weaknesses, magnified as well. And yes, he does work well as the villain to the Avengers.

I might've said this before, but I really dislike how the twins' catalyst for switching sides boils down to "oh no Ultron hates everybody".
No, their catalyst is "Oh no, Ultron plans on destroying the world. Crap."

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#68603: Apr 12th 2017 at 6:39:17 AM

So, I'm still watching Luke Cage, and if I may ask: does Mariah Dillard ever become a genuinely good villain? Because compared to Cottonmouth and Shades, she's kinda weak. She feels more like a typical scummy politician that I've seen probably a hundred times by now.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#68604: Apr 12th 2017 at 6:42:18 AM

Not in my opinion, no. She's mostly being set-up for season 2.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#68605: Apr 12th 2017 at 6:44:21 AM

Feels like a huge waste then.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#68606: Apr 12th 2017 at 7:39:42 AM

In my opinion, yes. Mariah is the one thing which kind of rescues the last episode for me....I hate her with a passion, which is always good for a villain.

Pseudopartition Screaming Into The Void from The Cretaeceous Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Screaming Into The Void
#68607: Apr 12th 2017 at 7:52:05 AM

Er...bombs are designed for the express purpose of killing people. Cars are not.

Hating someone because he created the weapon that killed your parents is pretty justified.

As much as I have issues with the Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver plotline (which have been pretty well covered in this thread, but also they decided that having two characters who were Jewish/Romani in the comics willingly work with Nazis was okay? Seriously?), the fact that it deals with Stark's past as a weapons manufacturer is not one of them. I dislike the idea that "oh, well Stark just built the weapons designed to hurt has many people as possible, he can't be held responsible for the ways in which it is used to hurt people," because, as a scientist in training, I firmly believe that you have to consider the ethical implications of the work that you do. Hell, Stark acknowledges this in the first Iron Man film.

... Of course, then Age of Ultron basically glosses over it after using it as plot motivation, the way it totally forgets about Wanda being responsible for the deaths of a ton of innocent people in South Africa.

I actually enjoyed Ao U better than the first Avengers, but I think the movie has so many problems.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#68608: Apr 12th 2017 at 7:59:18 AM

The home of Pietro and Wanda wasn't just hit by a bomb. It was hit and they spend hours staring at a dud, afraid that it might still explode. If you stare for hours on the name "Stark", waiting that it kills you, I would be very surprised if you get away from it NOT messed up.

Btw, if Marvel really wants to further its comic book sales, here is what it should do: It should start selling a special brand of comics at train station, airports, everywhere where people are who might need some last minute read for a long travel. And said comics should be for one tie-in comics for the MCU and stand-alone comics in thick paper backs which don't tie into anything for a quick read. Marvel doesn't do itself any favour by constantly catering to their "old fans" alone, they need to encourage new readers.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#68609: Apr 12th 2017 at 8:04:00 AM

I think the reason the movie pulled the bait and switch on Wanda and Pietro's motivations is that, as sympathetic as they are, that's not an argument they can actually win.

  • Wanda: Tony Stark is responsible for our childhood being destroyed by the weapons of mass destruction he made to kill us.
  • Tony: Actually, I'm pretty sure those were terrorists firing either stolen weapons or weapons sold under the table at Sokovia. Unless there was a war between the U.S. and your nation, but I'm pretty sure that would have been a plot point.
  • Wanda: You're still responsible for selling them to terrorists in the first place.
  • Tony: I only sold them to the military. My partner was making underhanded deals, which I put an end to as soon as I found out and then personally destroyed as many of the things as I could find. You aren't wrong that it was happening, however, which is why I ended my company's defense contracting. I guess we make phones now or something; the movies never really delved into it.
  • Wanda: You should still have to pay us reparations for the trauma.
  • Tony: You want to remind me whose house you're living in now that you're conspicuously not in jail for the havoc you unleashed on Brazil?
  • Wanda: We spent days staring at a bomb, waiting for it to detonate, before we were rescued.
  • Tony: Hey, I feel for you. Again, sympathy is the only reason you're not in jail right now. But if you want to talk staring at a bomb, does everyone remember that time I caught a live nuclear warhead and flew it into space? You're not speaking Chitauri right now because of me, so you're welcome.

The tragedy of their characters is that not only does the Tony Stark they so despise no longer exist, but he never did. They're chasing a bogeyman they built up in their minds as this absolute evil.

edited 12th Apr '17 8:06:11 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#68610: Apr 12th 2017 at 8:06:43 AM

I have no problem with them bringing up Stark's past, it just struck me as weak motivation all things considered. Them spending years wanting to kill the guy who built the bomb that killed their family and not, ya know, whoever actually killed their family just struck me as a somewhat contrived narrative decision. It'd be like if instead of going after the guy who murdered his parents, Bruce Wayne decided to go kill the CEO of the company that created the gun the murderer used.

That the plotline is pretty much dropped halfway through and Wanda never even has a conversation with Tony just compounds it.

edited 12th Apr '17 8:59:43 AM by comicwriter

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#68611: Apr 12th 2017 at 8:22:43 AM

[up][up] But isn't that the point? By being forced to join the Avengers to defeat a bigger threat they are also forced to get to know them as people and not as those powerful heroes who mess with other people lives nilly willy. Thus said, Wanda and Tony should have shared at least one scene in that movie. That they didn't is the result of it being so incredible overstuffed.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#68612: Apr 12th 2017 at 8:49:18 AM

Slade had dumber reasons to go after the Titans

Batman deciding to fight all crime forever

Grim Reaper deciding to kill the Avengers for his brother instead of the extant masters of evil.

Grief is a chaotic motivator

Anyway, Wanda and Pietro's role in AOU was a very flawed compromise between their origins as members of Magneto's Brotherhood, their history as Avengers, and the needs of the plot

Maybe if they had been unwilling subjects and Ultron convinced them to go after the Avengers after saving them. Not sure how you'd get Wanda to still mind whammy Tony

Maybe the Hydra attack let the twins bust loose but the Avengers thought they were just enhanced Hydra soldiers. Fits in with the fallout from war angle

Wanda runs into Tony and mind whammies him to get away without physically hurting him

Maybe when he says his name is Stark she freaks out. Not mercilessly in a grudge way but staring at the bomb might have given her ptsd triggered by his name

Because the thing is and the thing a lot of modern writers forget is that Wanda and Pietro didn't want to be Brotherhood of Evil Nouns.

They felt they owed Magneto for saving them. So Avengers hunting down the twins because at this point they understand their situation and want to help

Ultron 'saves' them and they feel indebted to him when he tells them he's going to destroy the Avengers and needs their help

Put in some Wanda second guessing during the vibranium heist scene and you have a possibly better set up for heel face turn

And Wanda and Pietro definitely need a conversation with Tony where if they don't necessarily forgive him (grief and anger are often irrational) at least get to say their piece

Maybe a scene toward the end where Wanda explicitly says she wants to join the Avengers to make up for what she had done.

edited 12th Apr '17 8:52:13 AM by Bocaj

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#68613: Apr 12th 2017 at 9:07:49 AM

I would say an effective use could have been doing a deeper exploration of the people of Sokovia viewing the Avengers as American imperialists who want to impose their will on foreign countries. That was very briefly touched upon in the movie but I feel you could have done something interesting with that. They are approached by a seeming beneficial group of scientists who claim to want to empower Sokovians to take care of their own problems without needing arrogant Americans, and the twins accept, not realizing it's a front for HYDRA experimentation.

You could even keep the part about them being angry at Tony Stark for building the bombs used in the war that ravaged their country (again, fitting the theme of American imperialism), just without making it their entire motivation and then dropping it halfway through.

edited 12th Apr '17 9:08:47 AM by comicwriter

KingNomarch Since: Oct, 2015
#68614: Apr 12th 2017 at 10:19:13 AM

Jessica Jones season 2 character breakdowns[1].

ExplosiveLion Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
#68615: Apr 12th 2017 at 10:23:07 AM

[up][up]

Yet it doesn't make sense. It's heavily implied that Sokovia's in the state it is because of some civil war/terrorism stuff. Them hating America (and specifically, Tony Stark, judging by the Iron Man graffiti) comes completely out of the blue.

As I've said, that movie was really lazily written.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#68616: Apr 12th 2017 at 10:28:34 AM

Maybe the CIA overthrew their government.

Its been known to happen.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#68617: Apr 12th 2017 at 10:48:18 AM

Or America had some vested interest in the conflict a while back, wrecked a bunch of shit, and then left.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#68618: Apr 12th 2017 at 10:49:11 AM

Its been known to happen.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
ExplosiveLion Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
#68619: Apr 12th 2017 at 10:51:02 AM

[up] I'd had no problem with that honestly, the just have to set it up. But they didn't, because the movie was so stuffed already/they thought it didn't matter. Again, lazy writing.

Of course he failed. He's the villain. Saying "The villain is weak because he failed" is silly.

What I meant is that he failed to be both an emotional and intellectual threat before even the skirmish in South Korea. The only time I felt he won (and he didn't do crap) was in Africa, when Wanda (not Ultron) used the Hulk to distract the Avengers.

I mean, the movie would've been called Avengers: Age of Wanda and it'd be much better.

But there was still an enormous amount of effort that went into stopping him...

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, what did he accomplish? Stealing the Vibranium, maybe, and that was all thanks to Wanda. He didn't do crap after that.

... and the Sokovia attack reverberated into Civil War, meaning that, hell, Ultron even caused that movie.

The whole Civil War thing was a result of everything before it. Ultron didn't cause it. He might have been the last straw, but he sure as hell isn't the reason. The whole plot was set in motion pretty much since the first Avengers movie (or, to go really far, since the first THOR movie).

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#68620: Apr 12th 2017 at 10:57:22 AM

  • Secret Wandas
  • Civil Wanda
  • World War Wanda
  • X-Men Vs Wanda
  • One More Wanda
  • 'Til Death Do Us Wanda
  • Fear It's Wanda

Okay, I'm done.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#68621: Apr 12th 2017 at 10:57:32 AM

Or the terrorists were using American weapons made in America and presumably obtained by Americans, and thus the twins leapt to the assumption that theirs was one of the many countries where first-world leaders propped up insurgencies to overthrow politically inconvenient governments.

I mean, we can be pretty sure they had Stark weapons because Stane was selling under the table, but looking at global politics, is the assumption, "Americans are killing us in a proxy war," really that much of a stretch?

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
ExplosiveLion Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
#68622: Apr 12th 2017 at 11:00:13 AM

Ok, them hating America, maybe I can buy it. But Tony? That one is a stretch.

[up][up]

You forgot about Wanda-verse.

edited 12th Apr '17 11:06:59 AM by ExplosiveLion

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#68623: Apr 12th 2017 at 11:01:30 AM

I mean, his name is on the missile.

My various fanfics.
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#68624: Apr 12th 2017 at 11:02:42 AM

I think you underestimate the currency of the Starktech name in the MCU. It's probably like hating Coca-Cola or McDonalds— the company just has to be colluding with America politically as well as financially in order to spread the way it has. Whether or not that's fair— and it isn't— that's the perception. Especially if your mind's been warped by being entombed with one of the bombs that killed your parents, and that name is staring you in the face the entire time.

edited 12th Apr '17 11:15:38 AM by Unsung

ExplosiveLion Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
#68625: Apr 12th 2017 at 11:08:44 AM

(Someone throws an I Phone at my face)

"DAMN YOU STEVE JOOOOOOBS"

That's the same.


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